Just wanted to tell you.😊😉
Larissa, I made a group called SDAs are Wrong and used the verses in this group. Is that okay with you? I created it because it's higher up on the Leaderboard and people will click on it and go to this group. If you join I will make you admin. But if you are not okay with me using your verses, I will take them off.
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Sunday, Nov 26, 2023 at 4:44 PM
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“No doubt but ye are the people, And wisdom shall die with you. But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you:” Job 12:2-3. “Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.” Romans 8:33-34 m
I am not going to try to change your minds any more. Obviously you have rejected the Truth of the Sabbath (etc) and will continue in your false beliefs. So we have a barrier between us. You have rejected God's true Sabbath. Until you come to the realization that you are keeping Satan's false day of worship (Sunday, the FIRST day of the week), there is nothing more we can do for you. You will be held accountable for the people that you successfully draw away from the Truth. Their blood will be on your hands. God help you. 😞
I am the admin. it’s a hard line to walk figuring which posts to keep and which posts to delete. 🤷🏻♀️😁
BTW, Marilyn, you told everyone to not listen to Siri, when she was actually defending your faith.
The discussion ones are actually very helpful, so please don't delete those.😅
Because, if so, you can delete offensive posts from some decieved SDAs if you want.
@Larissa, are you the admin?
It is never God's will "trash" anyone.
@Marilyn, I am not trying to trash anybody. I am opposing your false beliefs, not you.
Marilyn, none of us are worshipping a day. We worship Jesus everyday. He is our Sabbath rest now.
JJ, as far as I know Siri is still deceived.
This is just a reminder.. The disobedient will eventually be destroyed in the second death along with the wicked and the devil and his evil angels. Will you continue to disobey God's will and worship a false idol and doctrine of the devil? 🤔
@JJ: I know you think you are doing God's will by trashing SDAs like me, but you are only fighting against God's will. The battle is the Lord's. Everyone will soon have to make an intelligent decision of whether to keep holy God's true Sabbath (the seventh day is from Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown) or continuing to keep a false sabbath, Sunday (or the first day of the work week). No one will be exempt from having to make this critical decision.
Wait, is Siri a freed SDA, or is she still deceived?
Thanks JJ! I’m glad you found it helpful.
It's super helpful against the deceit of SDA indoctrination.👍
If you are wondering about SDA false teaching, read this message wall.
I just read the whole message wall.😮💨😄👍😉
Larissa, your posts are very helpful.👍
I sent this blessing off with my Grandkids today. They came for an early Thanksgiving visit with us. These verses clearly show that God requires obedience. there is nothing legalistic about doing God's will. May God's blessing be with you and your families as well this Thanksgiving season: "But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him, and His righteousness unto children’s children; To such as keep His covenant, and to those that remember His commandments to do them." - Psalm 103:17-18
For anyone who is looking at this go down to the bottom of this message wall and read it.
It's too bad that it's unactive.
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Sunday, Jun 25, 2023 at 3:30 PM
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Beware SDA’s false teaching
@Everyone: Beware of Siri's false teachings on here regarding God's true Seventh-Day Sabbath. It has never been changed! It is the 4th commandment, and the only one that God expressly "commanded" us to REMEMBER (see the KJV). It will be observed throughout eternity. It was blessed and made holy, and sanctified by God at Creation (Gen 2:1-3). No man has been given permission to change it for "God changes not." HE had no reason to change it. The Sunday Law is being agitated as I speak and soon will be enforced. Continuing to observe Sunday (the false Sabbath set aside by the Catholic Church) as your holy day after the Sunday law is enforced will cause you to receive the mark of the beast (the Catholic worship system or modern day Babylon). Please come back to the Truth before it's too late.
I read earlier posts, they’re super helpful!
Sadly it is. I used to love coming and writing on here. Nice meeting you!!
Yeah... It used to be super active... but now...
This group is really inactive
this corona thing is really big right now, pray for the people that get it
well I’m fine, just fine🤣
I'm not doing too good tbh 😅😆😔
One of the most used lies is "I'm fine"
LOL. actually I heard someone say “bad” in response to “how are you doing.” A professor asked one of my classmates how he was. that day was a test day and he said “bad.”
hopefully I can be on more when it’s summer and there is no schoool
year life has gotten busy
After this week I should be able to multitask doing this and something else but I'm going to be gone most of the time so
ikr, I have so much going on it’s hard to keep up with this all
quite yet, for my life is quite busy at the moment
I've read the Chronicles of Narnia as well its really good! Sadly, I do not have a response
wow, I missed a lot, I havnt been to active lately cause I’m kinda busy
As a never-ending reminder, not only of God’s works of love in Creation, but of His ultimate loving sacrifice to save us from the prison of ourselves and to give us eternal rest—the Sabbath rest remains. Even in Heaven, “‘from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me,’ declares the Lord.” (Is. 66:23)
God’s rest is righteousness “by grace, though faith.” It means throwing ourselves into the arms of God with complete abandon, like a weary child into his father’s arms, trusting implicitly that He will hold us up. That is the true Sabbath rest. And that is why the Sabbath day will never be replaced—will never become outdated or obsolete. It is a weekly “sign between me and you, that I am the Lord who sanctifies you” (Ex. 31:13).
Paul explains that God’s rest, means ceasing, not only from our labor, but from “our works”—our own righteousness—and trusting God to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. God’s rest means unquestioning trust in God’s love. It means quiet, soul-deep serenity—completely releasing our restless striving, our futile attempts to control our own destiny, our constant obsessive labor to take care of ourselves—to save ourselves. That’s what it means to “rest from our own works.” The Sabbath day is both a symbol and a sampling of this rest.
And now, Paul says, “there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9). A day to “rest from our works, as God did from His.” (Heb. 4:10) This assures the Jewish readers that the Sabbath rest remains. We, like the Israelites, are invited—are urged—to enter into God’s rest—the rest of the Sabbath. We are urged not to be like Israel—or like the dwarfs.
Like the dwarfs, the Israelites failed to enter God’s Sabbath rest because of their unbelief. The prison in their minds—a prison of distrust of the One trying to help them and refusal to depend on anyone outside themselves—was so strong they could not break free. As Paul puts it, they “hardened their hearts” against God’s love (Heb. 3:8). And, tragically, because they would not allow God to free them from themselves, they could not enter the Sabbath rest.
“But when at last they sat down to nurse their black eyes and their bleeding noses, they all said: ‘Well, at any rate there’s no Humbug here. We haven’t let anyone take us in. The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs.’“ “‘You see,’ said Aslan. ‘They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.'”
“Aslan raised his head and shook his mane. Instantly a glorious feast appeared on the dwarfs’ knees: pies and tongues and pigeons and trifles and ices, and each dwarf had a goblet of good wine in his right hand. But it wasn’t much use. They began eating and drinking greedily enough, but…[t]hey thought they were eating and drinking only the sort of things you might find in a stable. One said he was trying to eat hay and another said he had got a bit of an old turnip and a third said he’d found a raw cabbage leaf. And they raised golden goblets of rich red wine to their lips and said ‘Ugh! Fancy drinking dirty water out of a trough that a donkey’s been at! Never thought we’d come to this.’ But very soon every dwarf began suspecting that every other dwarf had found something nicer than he had, and they started grabbing and snatching, and went on to quarreling, till in a few minutes there was a free fight and all the good food was smeared on their faces and clothes or trodden under foot.
“‘Aslan,’ said Lucy through her tears, ‘could you—will you—do something for these poor dwarfs?’ “‘Dearest,’ said Aslan, ‘I will show you both what I can, and what I cannot, do.’ He came close to the dwarfs and gave a low growl: low, but it set all the air shaking. But the Dwarfs said to one another, ‘Hear that? That’s the gang at the other end of the stable. Trying to frighten us. They do it with a machine of some kind. Don’t take any notice. They won’t take us in again!’
But remember how they cannot recognize they are free? They believe they are still captive in a dark and filthy stable. The children try to convince them they are surrounded by flowers in a green, sunlit meadow—even hand them violets to prove it, but they believe the violets are foul-smelling refuse. Finally, Aslan the Lion (Christ) arrives.
I’ve always loved C.S. Lewis’ book, “The Last Battle.” The sin of the Israelites is vividly illustrated there and I’ve pasted some it here. Throughout the book, the dwarfs have been the pawns of the forces of evil trying to destroy Narnia. They are eventually captured, and are set free by the forces of the good king.
Their greatest sin was not sexual immorality or idolatry or overt rebellion against God. It was unbelief—a refusal to trust God’s love and His plan for them. And because they refused to trust, they could not enter God’s rest.
There was no shocking moral failing there, no orgies, no blasphemy or idolatry. Instead, there was something far more deadly. The Israelites refused to believe in the fatherly love that had surrounded and shielded them, clothed them and fed them, for long weary years in the desert. They refused to trust the God who had, again and again, worked miracles to save them. They demanded in bitter, resentful tones, “Is the Lord among us or not?” (Ex. 17).
None of them. Instead, the Psalm he quotes refers to Massah and Meribah, where Israel demanded water from God (Ps. 95; Ex. 17; Heb. 3:8-11).
What was the sin of the Israelites which caused God to throw up His hands in despair? There are many shocking moral collapses recorded against the Israelites in the wilderness—from the golden calf, to demanding that God give them meat, to orgies with the Moabites. Which of these does Paul cite as the reason Israel could not enter God’s rest?
Most English versions render Hebrews 4:3 & 5 in such a way as to make logical sense: “as I swore in my wrath, they shall never enter my rest.” The Greek construction, however, is not so straightforward as that. The original wording actually says something closer to the way the King James Version renders it: “As I swore in my wrath, if they would enter into my rest.” This more literal but less transparent translation suggests that God’s lament may not be an outburst of anger so much as a sigh of frustration, as if God is looking down at his harried creatures and saying: “What’s wrong with these people? They’re always worried and bothered, and anxiously striving to save themselves, when my provision for them has been in place all along, ready and waiting.” From that angle, it is not hard to imagine God throwing up his hands and exclaiming, “If they would only enter my rest!”
Paul quotes Psalm 95, which says, “as I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter my rest;” an unmistakable warning that those who fail to keep moving in the right direction will miss out on the rest that lay ahead. But then he adds an evocative comment referring not forward to the future but backward to the distant past, even to creation week itself: “although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.”
Paul reminds his readers, who knew the story well, of God’s extravagant attempts to win the Israelites’ love and trust—the daily food He gave them, the pillar of fire and cloud as warmth and light by night and shade and protection by day, miraculous water from a rock, His own literal presence in the sanctuary. But he sadly reminds them that for many of the Israelites, these extravagant demonstrations were in vain.
Paul proclaims that this Sabbath rest has always existed—has always been available to anyone who was willing (Heb. 4:2). But, although the ancient Israelites “kept” the Sabbath, he tells us, they did not enter into the Sabbath rest (Heb. 4:6). They did not “rest from their works, as God did from His.” (Heb. 4:11)
God can rest from His works, not only because He has completed his creation of humans and a perfect world for them to live in, but because he has created the perfect Emergency Rescue—the sacrifice of Christ, “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). This salvation, prepared in advance, is the true basis for the Christian’s Sabbath rest.
But, Paul goes on, something else happened on that day. God’s creation was finished. “God’s works have been finished since the creation of the world.” (Heb. 4:3) Everything that the human race would ever need had been created. Not only water and trees and fruit-bearing plants and animals as companions and helpers, but, even more crucial, a plan to save them from themselves.
“Ah, but after all these millennia you still don’t get it!” I can hear Paul sighing, “You don’t understand what rest really means.” To show them, he carries them back to the very beginning—to God and His creation. To the first Sabbath day when God rested and called all creation “very good.” But they’re still confused. Yes, they know God rested on the Sabbath day. That’s why they rest and why their ancestors since ancient times have rested.
The question of Hebrews 4 is not, “What day is the Sabbath?” but “What is the Sabbath about?” And the answer is “rest.” But the knee-jerk response of the original Jewish readers would have been, “We already knew that! We’ve known that for millennia. Why do you think we don’t light fires or thresh wheat or walk more than a Sabbath day’s journey?”
Hebrews 4 looks both backward and forward—backward to Creation and forward to the final Sabbath rest (Heaven). Paul grounds his argument in the story of creation which the readers had known well since childhood. But while acknowledging the familiar history of God’s Sabbath rest, he simultaneously reaches forward to give that original rest a new depth of meaning.
In Hebrews 3 and 4, Paul is giving these believers a brand-new context for understanding their beloved Sabbath day. Hebrews 4 delves deep into the rich spiritual significance of the Sabbath, far beyond the first century Jewish obsession with prohibited behavior, surface understandings and rote rituals.
Torn between the familiar beliefs and rituals they had cherished since childhood, and their staunch conviction regarding newly-discovered truth, the internal conflict must have been agonizing. It was to these people that Hebrews was written. Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews) fashions a bridge connecting the old and the new for them to cross over. He reassures and comforts these believers—demonstrating that their former beliefs as Jews were not mistaken or heretical, but that their ancestors had been led by God as surely as they themselves had been. The fault was not in the doctrines or the rituals, which were ordained by God. But God was leading them forward into a new phase of His work on earth—God’s new thing. Hebrews 4 is the key to the rest of Hebrews. The book continues on to explain how Christ’s sacrifice supersedes the Jewish system of sacrifice and renders it unnecessary. The sacrificial system on earth is finished, replaced by the perfect Sacrifice in Heaven.
The Jewish Christians were suffering. The latter half of the first century was not an easy or pleasant time to be a Jewish follower of Jesus. As Christians and as Jews, these people suffered persecution from the Romans outside. While Judaism, as an ancient religion, was mostly accepted and tolerated in the Roman Empire, Christians were looked upon with suspicion and threatened with persecution.
Here’s my dump on Hebrews 4.
I don’t memorize her. but I don’t think it’s wrong to, any more than it is wrong to memorize Lincoln’s Gettysburg address...
I'm looking forward for the discussion Siri
2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV 1900) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
hmmmmm... you said 2 Cor 3:7 is that second Corinthians three seven? cause it is then incorrect I think
Just so you know, I’ve written a good bit in response, but I don’t want to post it until I’m finished. There are a lot things I want to comment on, lol. Thanks for your patience, Whitetigie!!
i think that that verse means that the commandments are not gone but it is symbolic that the commandments still to be followed but you can be forgiven because he died for us and we just have to ask
so you claim that the law was done away with? can I murder, steal, and covet? I think not
oh and btw, I made up the last two posts they're not actually in the book 😂
I’m a college student, so time is precious with me. It brought up a lot of interesting things that I would love to discuss more. I will begin writing my counter-argument soon.😊 but unfortunately today isn’t a good day to do it due to my schedule. Thanks for your understanding and your hard work!!
Thanks for sharing that, Whitetigie, and putting a lot effort into it! it is VERY much appreciated. I’ve heard that book before and it was interesting going through it.
it's in old English, if I would have has more time(a lot more 😆) I would have fixed it. Wait, did you read everything I wrote?
I also must apologize that this message has been long, but I wish that ye may see the truth
Thus ends the words of John Bunyan of which I, James, have taken notes from and hope that you see the truth behind it.
But these things, as I said, he did not of conscience to the things; for he knew that their sanction was gone. Nor would he suffer them to be imposed upon the churches directly or indirectly; no, not by Peter himself (Gal 2:11). Were I in Turkey with a church of Jesus Christ, I would keep the first day of the week to God, and for the edification of his people: and would also preach the word to the infidels on their sabbath day, which is our Friday; and be glad too, if I might have such opportunity to try to persuade them to a love of their own salvation.
Wherefore, if you observe, you shall still find, that where it is said that he preached on that day, it was to that people, not to the churches of Christ. See Acts 9:20; 13:14–16; 16:13; 17:1–3; 18:4. Thus, though he had put away the sanction of that day as to himself, and had left the Christians that were weak to their liberty as to conscience to it, yet he takes occasion upon it to preach to the Jews that still were wedded to it, the faith, that they might be saved by grace. Paul did also many other things that were Jewish and ceremonial, for which he had, as then, no conscience at all, as to any sanction that he believed was in them. As his circumcising of Timothy (Acts 16:1–3). His shaving of his head (Acts 18:18). His submitting to Jewish purifications (Acts 21:24–26). His acknowledging of himself a Pharisee (chap. 23:6). His implicitly owning of Ananias for high priest after Christ was risen from the dead (Acts 23:1–5). He tells us also that, ‘unto the Jews he became as a Jew’ that he might save the Jew. And ‘without law,’ to them that were without law, that also he might gain them. Yea, he became, as he saith, ‘all things to all men,’ that he might gain the more, as it is 1 Corinthians 9:19–23.
Ans. To the unbelieving Jews and their proselytes, I grant he did. But we read not that he did it to any new testament church on that day: nor did he celebrate the instituted worship of Christ in the churches on that day. For Paul, who had before cast out the ministration of death, as that which had no glory, would not now take thereof any part for new testament instituted worship; for he knew that that would veil the heart, and blind the mind from that, which yet instituted worship was ordained to discover. He preached then on the seventh day sabbath, of a divine and crafty love to the salvation of the unbelieving Jews. I say, he preached now on that day to them and their proselytes, because that day was theirs by their estimation. He did it, I say, of great love to their souls, that if possible, he might save some of them.
But as to the old seventh day sabbath, as hath been said afore in this treatise, Paul, who is the apostle of the Gentiles, has so taken away that whole ministration in the bowels of which it is; yea, and has so stript it of its old testament grandeur, both by terms and arguments, that it is strange to me it should by any be still kept up in the churches; specially, since the same apostle, and that at the same time, has put a better ministration in its place (2 Cor 3). But when the consciences of good men are captivated with an error, none can stop them from a prosecution thereof, as if were itself of the best of truths.
And although what I have said may be but little set by of some, yet, for a closing word as to this, I do think, could but half so much be produced from the day Christ rose from the dead quite down [to the end of revelation], for the sanction of a seventh day sabbath in the churches of the Gentiles, it would much sway with me. But the truth is, neither doth the apostle Paul, nor any of his fellows, so much as once speak one word to the churches that shows the least regard, as to conscience to God, of a seventh day sabbath more. No, the first day, the first day, the first day, is now all the cry in the churches by the apostles, for the performing church worship in to God. Christ began it on THAT day: then the Holy Ghost seconded it on that day: then the churches practised it on that day. And to conclude; the apostle by the command now under consideration, continues the sanction of that day to the churches to the end of the world.
Oh! the resurrection of Christ, which was on this day, and the riches that we receive thereby. Though it should be, and is, I hope thought on every day; yet when the first of the week is fully come! Then to-day! This day! This is the day to be warmed; this day he was begotten from the dead. The thought of this, will do much with an honest mind: this is the day, I say, that the first saints did find, and that after saints do find the blessings of God come down upon them; and therefore this is the day here commanded to be set apart for holy duties.
This is the day on which, at first, it rained manna all day long from heaven upon the new testament church, and so continues to do this day
3. On the first day of the week, when the church is performing of holy worship unto God, then that of collection for the saints is most meet to be performed; because then, in all likelihood, our hearts will be most warm with the divine presence; consequently most open and free to contribute to the necessity of the saints. You know, that a man when his heart is open, is taken with some excellent thing; then, if at all, it is most free to do something for the promoting thereof. Why, waiting upon God in the way of his appointments, opens, and makes free, the heart to the poor: and because the first day of the week was it in which now such solemn service to him was done, therefore also the apostle commanded, that upon the same day also, as on a day most fit, this duty of collecting for the poor should be done. ‘For God loveth a cheerful giver’ (2 Cor 9:6, 7). Wherefore the apostle by this, takes the churches as it were at the advantage, and as we say, [strikes] while the iron is hot, to the intent he might, what in him lay, make their collections, not sparing nor of a grudging mind, but to flow from cheerfulness. And the first day of the week, though its institution be set aside, doth most naturally tend to this; because it is the day, the only day, on which we received such blessings from God (Acts 3:26).
Quest. But is there yet another reason why this holy duty should, in special as it is, be commanded to be performed on the first day of the week? Ans. 1. Yes: for that now the churches were come together in their respective places, the better to agree about collections, and to gather them. You know church worship is a duty, so long as we are in the world, and so long also is this of making collections for the saints. And for as much as the apostle speaks here, as I have hinted afore, of a church collection, when is it more fit to be done, than when the church is come together upon the first day of the week to worship God? 2. This part of worship is most comely to be done upon the first day of the week, and that at the close of that day’s work. For thereby the church shows, not only her thankfulness to God for a sabbath day’s mercy, but also returneth him, by giving to the poor, that sacrifice for their benefit that is most behoveful to make manifest their professed subjection to Christ (Prov 19:17; 2 Cor 9:12–15). It is therefore necessary, that this work be done on the first day of the week, for a comely close of the worship that we perform to the Lord our God on that day.
6. But for the apostle now to give with this a particular command to the churches to sanctify that day as holy unto the Lord, had been utterly superfluous; for that they already, and that by the countenance of their Lord, and his church at Jerusalem, had done. Before now, I say, it was become a custom, as by what hath been said already is manifest: wherefore what need that their so solemn a practice be imposed again upon the brethren? An intimation now of a continued respect thereto, by the very naming of the day, is enough to keep the sanctity thereof on foot in the churches. How much more then, when the Lord is still adding holy duty to holy duty, to be performed upon that day. So then, in that the apostle writes to the churches to do this holy duty on the first day of the week, he puts them in mind of the sanction of the day, and insinuates, that he would still have them have a due respect thereto.
2. You must understand that this order is but additional, and now enjoined to fill up that which was begun as to holy exercise of religious worship by the churches long before. 3. The universality of the duty being enjoined to this day, supposes that this day was universally kept by the churches as holy already. 4. And let him that scrupleth this, shew me, if he can, that God by the mouth of his apostles did ever command that all the churches should be confined to this or that duty on such a day, and yet put no sanction upon that day; or that he has commanded that this work should be done on the first day of the week, and yet has reserved other church ordinances as a public solemnization of worship to him, to be done of another day, as of a day more fit, more holy. 5. If charity, if a general collection for the saints in the churches is commanded on this day, and on no other day but this day; for church collection is commanded on no other, there must be a reason for it: and if that reason had not respect to the sanction of the day, I known to why the duty should be so strictly confined to it.
Further, I find also by this text, that this order is universal. I have, saith he, given this order not only to you, but to the churches of Galatia. Consequently to all other that were concerned in this collection (2 Cor 8, 9, &c.). Now this, whatever others may think, puts yet more glory upon the first day of the week. For in that all the churches are commanded, as to make their collections, so to make them on this day: what is it, but that this day, by reason of the sanction that Christ put upon it, was of virtue to sanctify the offering through and by Christ Jesus, as the altar and temple afore did sanctify the gift and gold that was, and was offered on them. The proverb is, ‘The better day, the better deed.’ And I believe, that things done on the Lord’s day, are better done, than on other days of the week, in his worship. Obj. But yet, say some, here are no orders to keep this first day holy to the Lord. Ans. 1. That is supplied; for that by this very text this day is appointed, above all the days of the week, to do this holy duty in.
The work now to be done, was, as you see, to bestow their charity upon the poor; yea, to provide for time to come. And I say, it must be collected upon the first day of the week. Upon THE first day; not A first day, as signifying one or two, but upon THE first day, even every first day; for so your ancient Bibles have it; also our later must be so understood, or else Paul had left them to whom he did write, utterly at a loss. For if he intended not every first day, and yet did not specify a particular one, it could hardly even have been understood which first day he meant. But we need not stand upon this. This work was a work for A first-day, for EVERY first day of the week. Note again that we have this duty here commanded and enforced by an apostolical order: ‘I have given order,’ saith Paul, for this; and his orders, as he saith in another place, ‘are the commandments of the Lord.’ You have it in the same epistle (chap. 14:37). Whence it follows, that there was given even by the apostles themselves, a holy respect to the first day of the week above all the days of the week; yea, or of the year besides.
Fifth, We will add to this another text. ‘Now [saith Paul] concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come’ (1 Cor 16:1, 2). This text some have greatly sought to evade, counting the duty here, on this day to be done, a duty too inferior for the sanction of an old seventh day sabbath; when yet to show mercy to an ass on the old sabbath, was a work which our Lord no ways condemns (Luke 13:15; 14:5). But to pursue our design, we have a duty enjoined, and that of no inferior sort. If charity be indeed as it is, the very bond of perfectness: and if without it all our doings, yea and sufferings too, are not worthy so much as a rush (1 Cor 13; Col 3:14). we have here a duty, I say, that a seventh day sabbath, when in force, was not too big for it to be performed in.
Now, I say, since we have so ample an example, not only of the church at Jerusalem, but also of the churches of the Gentiles, for the keeping of the first day to the Lord, and that as countenanced by Christ and his apostles, we should not be afraid to tread in their steps, for their practice is the same with law and commandment. But,
Thus you see, that breaking of bread, was the work, the work that by general consent was agreed to be by the churches of the Gentiles performed upon the first day of the week. I say, by the churches; for I doubt not but that the practice here, was also the practice of the rest of the Gentile churches, even as it had been before the practice of the church at Jerusalem. For this practice now did become universal, and so this text implies; for he speaks here universally of the practice of all disciples as such, though he limits Paul preaching to that church with whom he at present personally was. Upon the first day of the week, ‘when the disciples came together to break bread,’ Paul being at that time at Troas preached to them on that day. Thus then you see how the Gentile churches did use to break bread, not on the old sabbath, but on the first day of the week. And, I say, they had it from the church at Jerusalem; where the apostles were first seated, and beheld the way of their Lord with their eyes.
‘Upon THE first day’; not upon A first day, or upon one first day, or upon such a first day; for had he said so, we had had from thence not so strong an argument for our purpose: but when he saith, ‘upon the first day of the week’ they did it, he insinuates, that it was their custom. [It was] also upon one of these, [that] Paul being among them, preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow. Upon the first day: what, or which first day of this, or that, of the third or fourth week of the month? No, but upon the first day, every first day; for so the text admits us to judge. ‘Upon the first day of the week, WHEN the disciples came together,’ supposes a custom when, or as they were wont to come together to perform such service among themselves to God: then Paul preached unto them, &c. It is a text also that supposes an agreement among themselves as to this thing. They came together then to break bread; they had appointed to do it then, for that then was the day of their Lord’s resurrection, and that in which he himself congregated after he revived, with the first gospel church, the church at Jerusalem.
It also may be nominated to shew, that both the church at Jerusalem, and those of the Gentiles did harmonize in their sabbath, jointly concluding to solemnize worship on a [the same] day. And then again to shew, that they all had left the old sabbath to the unbelievers, and jointly chose to sanctify the day of the rising of their Lord, to this work. They ‘came together to break bread,’ to partake of the super of the Lord. And what day so fit as the Lord’s day for this? This was to be the work of that day, to wit, to solemnize that ordinance among themselves, adjoining other solemn worship thereto, to fill up the day, as the following part of the verse shews. This day therefore was designed for this work, the whole day, for the text declares it. The first day of the week was set by them apart for this work.
Thus you see that the solemnizing of a first day to holy uses was not limited to, though first preached by the church that was at Jerusalem. The church at Jerusalem was the mother church, and not that at Rome, as some falsely imagine; for from this church went out the law and the holy word of God to the Gentiles. Wherefore it must be supposed that this meeting of the Gentiles on the first day of the week to break bread, came to them by holy tradition from the church at Jerusalem, since they were the first that kept the first day as holy unto the Lord their God. And indeed, they had the best advantage to do it; for they had their Lord in the head of them to back them to it by his presence and preaching thereon. But we will a little comment upon the text. ‘Upon the first day of the week.’ Thus you see the day is nominated, and so is kept alive among the churches. For in that the day is nominated on which this religious exercise was performed, it is to be supposed that the Holy Ghost would have it live, and be taken notice of by the churches that succeed.
Fourth, We come yet more close to the custom of churches; I mean, to the custom of the churches of the Gentiles; for as yet we have spoken but of the practice of the church of God which was at Jerusalem; only we will add, that the customs that were laudable and binding with the church at Jerusalem, were with reverence to be imitated by the churches of the Gentiles; for there was but one law of Christ for them both to worship by. Now then, to come to the point, to wit, that it was the custom of the churches of the Gentiles, on the first day of the week, but upon no other that we read of, to come together to perform divine worship to their Lord. Hence it is said ‘And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,’ &c. (Acts 20:7). This is a text, that as to matter of fact cannot be contradicted by any, for the text saith plainly they did so, the disciples then came together to break bread, the disciples among the Gentiles, did so.
Now, after this the apostles to the churches did never make mention of a seventh day sabbath. For as the wave sheaf and the bread of first fruits were a figure of the Lord Jesus, and the waving, of his life from the dead: so that morrow after the sabbath on which the Jews waved their sheaf, was a figure of that on which our Lord did rise; consequently, when their morrow after the sabbath ceased, our morrow after that began, and so has continued a blessed morrow after their sabbath, as a holy sabbath to Christians from that time ever since.
And on the selfsame day they were to proclaim that that first day should be a holy convocation unto them. The which the apostles did, and grounded that their proclamation so on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not on ceremonies, that at the same day they brought three thousand souls to God (Acts 2:41). Now what another signal [applause] was here put upon the first day of the week! The day in which our Lord rose from the dead, assembled with his disciples, poured out so abundantly of the Spirit, and gathered even by the first draught that his fishermen made by the gospel, such a number of souls to God. Thus then they proclaimed, and thus they gathered sinners on the first first-day that they preached; for though they had assembled together over and over with their Lord before therein, yet they began not jointly to preach until this first day Pentecost.
To say little more to this head, but only to repeat what is written of this day of old, to wit, that it should be proclaimed the selfsame day, to wit, the morrow after the sabbath, which is the first day of the week, ‘that it may be an holy convocation unto you; ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings’ (Lev 23:21). This ceremony was about the sheaf that was to be waved, and bread of first fruits, which was a type of Christ; for he is unto God ‘the first fruits of them that slept’ (1 Cor 15:20). This sheaf, or bread, must not be waved on the old seventh day, but on the morrow after, which is the first day of the week, the day in which Christ rose from the dead, and waved himself as the first fruits of the elect unto God. Now from this day they were to count seven sabbaths complete, and on the morrow after the seventh sabbath, which was the first day of the week again; and this Pentecost upon which we now are, then they were to have a new meat offering, with meat offerings and drink offerings, &c.
This gift must be referred to the Lord’s day, the first day of the week, to fulfil the scripture, and to sanctify yet farther this holy day unto the use of all New Testament churches of the saints. For since on the first day of the week our Lord did rise from the dead, and by his special presence, I mean his personal, did accompany his church therein, and so preach as he did, his holy truths unto them, it was most meet that they on the same day also should receive the first fruits of their eternal life most gloriously. And, I say again, since from the resurrection of Christ to this day, the church then did receive upon the first day, but as we read, upon no other, such glorious things as we have mentioned, it is enough to beget in the hearts of them that love the Son of God, a high esteem of the first day of the week. But how much more, when there shall be joined to these, proof that it was the custom of the first gospel church, the church of Christ at Jerusalem, after our Lord was risen, to assemble together to wait upon God on the first day of the week with their Lord as leader.
1. The church was now, as on other first days, all with one accord in one place. We read not that they came together by virtue of any precedent revelation, nor by accident, but contrariwise by agreement, they were together ‘with one accord,’ or by appointment, in pursuance of their duty, setting apart that day, as they had done the first days afore, to the holy service of their blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2. We read that this meeting of theirs was not begun on the old sabbaths, but when Pentecost was fully come: the Holy Ghost intimating, that they had left now, and began to leave, the seventh day sabbath to the unbelieving Jews. 3. Nor did the Holy Ghost come down upon them till every moment of the old sabbath was past, Pentecost, as was said, was FULLY come first. ‘And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.’ And then, &c. And why was not this done on the seventh day sabbath? But, possibly, to shew, that the ministration of death and condemnation was not that, by or through which Christ the Lord would communicate so good a gift unto his churches (Gal 3:1–5).
Third, Add to this, that upon Pentecost, which was the first day of the week, mention is made of their being together again: for Pentecost was always the morrow after the sabbath, the old seventh day sabbath. Upon this day, I say, the Holy Ghost saith, they were again ‘with one accord together in one place.’ But oh! the glory that then attended them, by the presence of the Holy Ghost among them: never was such a thing done as was done on that first day until then. We will read the text, ‘And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost’ (Acts 2:1–4). Here is a first day glorified! Here’s a countenance given to the day of their Christian assembling. But we will note a few things upon it.
Churches also meet together now on the week days, and have the presence of Christ with them too in their employments; but that takes not off from them the sanction of the first day of the week, no more than it would take away the sanction of the old seventh day, had it still continued holy to them: wherefore this is no let or objection to hinder our sanctifying of the first day of the week to our God. But,
Hence now we conclude, that this was the custom of the church at this day, to wit, upon the first day of the week to meet together, and to wait upon their Lord therein. For the Holy Ghost counts it needless to make a continued repetition of things; it is enough therefore if we have now and then mention made thereof. Obj. But Christ shewed himself alive to them at other times also, as in John 21 &c. Ans. The names of all those days in which he so did are obliterated and blotted out, that they might not be idolized; for Christ did not set them apart for worship, but this day, the first day of the week, by its name is kept alive in the church, the Holy Ghost surely signifying thus much, that how hidden soever other days were, Christ would have his day, the first day had in everlasting remembrance among saints.
Perhaps some may stumble at the word ‘after,’ after eight days; but the meaning is, at the conclusion of the eighth day, or when they had spent in a manner the whole of their sabbath in waiting upon their Lord, then in comes their Lord, and finisheth that their day’s service to him with confirming of Thomas’ faith, and by letting drop other most heavenly treasure among them. Christ said, he must lie three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, yet it is evident, that he rose the third day (1 Cor 15:4). We must take then a part for the whole, and conclude, that from the time that the Lord Jesus rose from the dead, to the time that he shewed his hands and his side to Thomas, eight days were almost expired; that is, he had sanctified unto them two first days, and had accepted that service they had performed to him therein, as he testified by giving of them so blessed a farewell at the conclusion of both those days.
Second, On the next first day following the church was within again; that is, congregated to wait upon their Lord. And John so relates the matter, as to give us to understand that they were not so assembled together again till then. ‘After eight days,’ saith he, ‘again his disciples were within,’ clearly concluding, that they were not so on the days that were between, no not on the old seventh day. Now why should the Holy Ghost thus precisely speak of their assembling together upon the first day, if not to confirm us in this, that the Lord had chosen that day for the new sabbath of his church? Surely the Apostles knew what they did in their meeting together upon that day; yea, and the Lord Jesus also; for that he used so to visit them when so assembled, made his practice a law unto them. For practice is enough for us New Testament saints, especially when the Lord Jesus himself is in the head of that practice, and that after he rose from the dead.
But we are as yet but upon divine intimations, drawn from such texts which, if candidly considered, do very much smile upon this great truth; namely, that the first day of the week is to be accounted the Christian sabbath, or holy day for divine worship in the churches of the saints. And SECOND, Now I come to the texts that are more express. Then First, This was the day in the which he did use to shew himself to his people, and to congregate with them after he rose from the dead. On the first first-day, even on the day on which he rose from the dead, he visited his people, both when together and apart, over, and over, and over, as both Luke and John do testify (Luke 24; John 20). And preached such sermons of his resurrection, and gave unto them; yea, and gave them such demonstration of the truth of all, as was never given them from the foundation of the world. Shewing, he shewed them his risen body; opening, he opened their understandings; and dissipating, he so scattered their unbelief on THIS day, as he never had done before. And this continued one way or another even from before day until the evening.
Seventh, Hence this day is called ‘the Lord’s day,’ as John saith, ‘I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day,’ the day in which Jesus rose from the dead (Rev 1:10). ‘The Lord’s day.’ Every day, say some, is the Lord’s day. Indeed this for discourse sake may be granted; but strictly, no day can so properly be called the Lord’s day, as this first day of the week; for that no day of the week or of the year has those badges of the Lord’s glory upon it, nor such divine grace put upon it as has the first day of the week. This we have already made appear in part, and shall make appear much more before we have done therewith. There is nothing, as I know of, that bears this title but the Lord’s supper, and this day (1 Cor 11:20; Rev 1:10). And since Christians count it an abuse to allegorize the first, let them also be ashamed to fantasticalize the last. The Lord’s day is doubtless the day in which he rose from the dead. To be sure it is not the old seventh day; for from the day that he arose, to the end of the Bible, we find not that he did hang so much as one twist of glory upon that; but this day is beautified with glory upon glory, and that both by the Father and the Son; by the prophets and those that were raised from the dead thereon; therefore this day must be more than the rest.
Now, saith the text, when he bringeth him thus into the world, he requireth that worship be done unto HIM. When? That very day, and that by all the angels of God. And if by all, then ministers are not excluded; and if not ministers, then not churches; for what is said to the angels, is said to the church itself (Rev 2:1–7, 8, 11, 12, 17, 18, 29; 3:1, 6, 7, 13, 14, 22). So then, if the question be asked, when they must worship him: the answer is, when he brought him into the world, which was on the first day of the week; for then he bringeth him again from the dead, and gave the whole world and the government thereof into his holy hand. This text therefore is of weight as to what we have now under consideration, to wit, that the first day of the week, the day in which God brought his first-begotten into the world, should be the day of worshipping him by all the angels of God.
Sixth, Nor is that altogether to be slighted, when he saith, ‘When he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, Let all the angels of God worship him.’ To wit, at that very time and day (Heb 1:6). I know not what our expositors say of this text, but to me it seems to be meant of his resurrection from the dead; both because the apostle is speaking of that (v 5), and closes that argument with this text, ‘Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.’ So then, for God’s bringing of his first-begotten now into the world, was by his raising him again from the dead after they by crucifying of him had turned him out of the same. Thus then God brought him into the world, never by them to be hurried out of it again. For Christ being now raised from the dead, dies no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
I say again, shall God, as with his finger, point, and that in the face of the world, at this day, saying, ‘Thou art my Son, this day,’ &c., and shall not Christians fear, and awake from their employments, to worship the Lord on this day! If God remembers it, well may I! If God says, and that with all gladness of heart, ‘Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee!’ may not! ought not I also to set this day apart to sing the songs of my redemption in? THIS day my redemption was finished. This day my dear Jesus revived. This day he was declared to be the Son of God with power. Yea this is the day in which the Lord Jesus finished a greater work than ever yet was done in the world; yea, a work in which the Father himself was more delighted than he was in making of heaven and earth. And shall darkness and the shadow of death stain this day! Or shall a cloud dwell on this day! Shall God regard this day from above! And shall not his light shine upon this day! What shall be done to them that curse this day, and would not that the stars should give their light thereon. This day! After this day was come, God never, that we read of, made mention with delight, of the old seventh day sabbath more.
And, as I said, this day is the first of the week; for it was on that day that God begat his beloved Son from the dead. This first day of the week therefore, on it God found that pleasure which he found not in the seventh day from the world’s creation, for that in it his Son did live again to him. Now shall not Christians, when they do read that God saith, ‘This day,’ and that too with reference to a work done on it by him, so full of delight to him, and so full of life and heaven to them, set also a remark upon it, saying, This was the day of God’s pleasure, for that his Son did rise thereon, and shall it not be the day of my delight in him! This is the day on which his Son was both begotten and born, and became the first fruits to God of them that sleep; yea, and in which also he was made by him the chief, and head of the corner; and shall not we rejoice in it? (Acts 13:33; Heb 1:5; Col 1:18; Rev 1:5). Shall kings, and princes, and great men set a remark upon the day of their birth and coronation, and expect that both subjects and servants should do them high honour on that day, and shall the day in which Christ was both begotten and born, be a day contemned by Christians! And his name not be but of a common regard on that day?
Fifth, God the Father again leaves such another stamp of divine note and honour upon this day as he never before did leave upon any; where he saith to our Lord, ‘Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee’ (Acts 13:33). Still, I say, having respect to the first day of the week; for that, and no other, is the day here intended by the apostle. This day, saith God, is the day: ‘And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give thee the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another Psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.’ Wherefore the day in which God did this work, is greater than that in which he finished the work of creation; for his making of the creation saved it not from corruption, but now he hath done a work which corruption cannot touch, wherefore the day on which he did this, has this note from his own mouth, THIS day, as a day that doth transcend.
For can it be imagined, that the Spirit by the prophet should thus signalise this day for nothing; saying, ‘This is the day which the Lord hath made’; to no purpose? Yes, you may say, for the resurrection of his son. But I add, that that is not all, it is a day that the Lord has both made for that, and that we might ‘rejoice and be glad in it.’ Rejoice, that is before the Lord while solemn divine worship is performed on it, by all the people that shall partake of the redemption accomplished then.
Fourth, The psalmist speaks of a day that the Lord Jehovah, the Son of God, has made; and saith, ‘we will rejoice and be glad in it.’ But what day is this? Why the day in which Christ was made the ‘head of the corner,’ which must be applied to the day in which he was raised from the dead, which is the first of the week. Hence Peter saith to the Jews, when he treateth of Christ before them, and particularly of his resurrection. ‘This is the stone which WAS set at nought of you builders, which IS become the head of the croner.’ He was set at nought by them, the whole course of his ministry unto his death, and was made the head of the corner by God, on that day he rose from the dead. This day therefore is the day that the Lord Jehovah has made a day of rejoicing to the church of Christ, and we will rejoice and be glad in it (Psa 118:24).
Third, And on THIS day some of the saints that slept arose, and began their eternal sabbath (Matt 27:52, 53). See how the Lord Jesus hath glorified this day! Never was such a stamp of divine honour put upon any other day, no not since the world began. ‘And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection,’ &c. That is, they arose as soon as he was risen. But why was not all this done on the seventh day? No, that day was set apart that saints might adore God for the works of creation, and that saints through that might look for redemption by Christ. But now a work more glorious than that is to be done, and therefore another day is assigned for the doing of it in. A work, I say, of redemption completed, a day therefore by itself must be assigned for this; and some of the saints to begin their eternal sabbath with God in heaven, therefore a day by itself must be appointed for this. Yea, and that this day might not want that glory that might attract the most dim-sighted Christian to a desire after the sanction of it, the resurrection of Christ, and also of those saints met together on it: yea, they both did begin their eternal rest thereon.
Second, Hence he calls himself, The ‘Lord even of the sabbath day,’ as Luke 5; Matthew 12:8 shews. Now to be a LORD, is to have dominion, dominion over a thing, and so power to alter or change it according to that power; and where is he that dares say Christ has not this absolutely! We will therefore conclude that it is granted on all hands he hath. The question then is, Whether he hath exercised that power to the demolishing or removing of the Jews’ seventh day, and establishing another in its room? The which I think is easily answered, in that he did not rest from his own works therein, but chose, for his own rest, to himself another day. Surely, had the Lord Jesus intended to have established the seventh day to the churches of the Gentiles, he would himself in the first place have rested from his own works therein; but since he passed by that day, and took no notice of it, as to the finishing of his own works, as God took notice of it when he had finished his; it remains that he fixed upon another day, even the first of the week; on which, by his rising again, and shewing himself to his disciples before his passion, he made it manifest that he had chosen, ‘as Lord of the sabbath,’ that day for his own rest: consequently, and for the rest of his churches, and for his worship to be solemnized in.
So then, that being the day of the rest of the Son of God, it must needs be the day of the rest of his churches also. For God gave his resting day to his church to be a sabbath; and Christ rested from his own works as God did from his, therefore he also gave the day in which he rested from his works, a sabbath to the churches, as did the Father. Not that there are TWO sabbaths at once: the Father’s was imposed for a time, even until the Son’s should come; yea, as I have shewed you, even in the very time of its imposing it was also ordained to be done away. Hence he saith, that ministration ‘was to be done away’ (2 Cor 3:7). Therefore we plead not for two sabbaths to be at one time, but that a succession of time was ordained to the New Testament saints, or churches of the Gentiles, to worship God in; which time is that in which the Son rested from his own works as God did from his.
Nor may this be slighted, because the text says, as God finished his work, so Christ finished his; He also hath ceased from his own works as God did from his. He rested, I say, as God did; but God rested on his resting day, and therefore so did Christ. Not that he rested on the Father’s resting day; for it is evident, that then he had great part of his work to do; for he had not as then got his conquest over death, but the next day he also entered into his rest, having by his rising again, finished his work, viz., made a conquest over the powers of darkness, and brought life and immortality to light through his so doing.
FIRST, for those texts that are more close, yet have a divine intimation of this thing in them. First, The comparison that the Holy Ghost makes between the rest of God from his works, and the rest of Christ from his, doth intimate such a thing. ‘He that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his’ (Heb 4:10). Now God rested from his works, and sanctified a day of rest to himself, as a signal of that rest, which day he also gave to his church as a day of holy rest likewise. And if Christ thus rested from his own works, and the Holy Ghost says he did thus rest, he also hath sanctified a day to himself, as that in which he hath finished his work, and given it (that day) also to his church to be an everlasting memento of his so doing, and that they should keep it holy for his sake. And see, as the Father’s work was first, so his day went before; and as the Son’s work came after, so his day accordingly succeeded. The Father’s day was on the seventh day from the creation, the Son’s the first day following.
This then is the conclusion, that TIME to worship God in, is required by the law of nature; but that the law of nature doth, as such, fix it on the seventh day from the creation of the world, that I utterly deny, by what I have said already, and have yet to say on that behalf. Yea, I hope to make it manifest, as I have, that this seventh day is removed; that God, by the ministration of the spirit, has changed the time to another day, to wit, The first day of the week. Therefore we conclude the time is fixed for the worship of the New Testament Christians, or churches of the Gentiles, unto that day. Now in my discourse upon this subject, I shall, I. Touch upon those texts that are more close, yet have a divine intimation of this thing in them. II. And then I shall come to texts more express.
I do not question but that worship by the godly is performed to God every day of the week; yea, and every night too, and that time is appointed or allowed of God for the performance of such worship. But this time is not fixed to the same moment or hour universally, but is left to the discretion of the believers, as their frame of spirit, or occasions, or exigencies, or temptations, or duty shall require. We meddle then only with that time that the worship aforesaid is to be performed in; which time the law of nature as such supposes, but the God of nature chooses. And this time as to the churches of the Gentiles, we have proved is not that time which was assigned to the Jews, to wit, THAT seventh day which was imposed upon them by the ministration of death; for, as we have shewed already, that ministration indeed is done away by a better and more glorious ministration, the ministration of the spirit; which ministration surely would be much more inferior than that which has now no glory, was it defective as to this. That is, if it imposed a gospel service, but appointed not time to perform that worship in: or if notwithstanding all its commendation, it should be forced to borrow of a ministration inferior to itself; that, to wit, the time without which by no means its most solemn worship can be performed.
QUESTION V Since it is denied that the seventh day sabbath is moral, and it is found that it is not to abide as a sabbath for ever in the church, What time is to be fixed on for New Testament saints to perform together, divine worship to God by Christ in? Upon this question hangs the stress of all, as to the subject now under consideration: but before I can speak distinctly to it, I must premise, as I have in order to my speaking to the questions before, something for the better clearing of our way— [Therefore I remark, that] we are not now speaking of all manner of worshipping God, nor of all times in which all manner of worship is to be performed; but of that worship, which is church worship, or worship that is to be performed by the assembly of saints, when by the will of God they in all parts of his dominion assemble together to worship him; which worship hath a prefixed time allotted to, or for its performance, and without which it cannot, according to the mind of God, be done. This is the time, I say, that we are to discourse of, and not of ALL time appointed for all manner of worship.
What can be more plain? The text says expressly, that this ministration doth NOT remain; yea, and insinuates, that in its first institution it was ordained with this proviso, ‘It was to be done away.’ Now if in its first institution upon Sinai it was thus ordained; and if by the coming in of the ministration of the spirit, this ordination is now executed; that is, if by it, and the apostle saith it, it is done away by a ministration that remains: then where is that seventh day sabbath? Thus therefore I have discoursed upon this fourth question: And having shewed by this discourse that the old seventh day sabbath is abolished and done away, and that it has nothing to do with the churches of the Gentiles; I am next to shew what day it is that must abide as holy to the Christians, and for them to perform their New Testament church service in.
first of all, .god did not Ake only the people of Israel to Know the word of God, he wanted them to preach to all other nations, why do your think god did miracles in other places with people like the gentiles. second, I don’t know where you got that verse, but it doesn’t say that in my version, it says nothing about the resting on the first day. genesis 2:2 says “and he rested from all his work which he had made, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.”
And I say again, the seventh day sabbath cannot be it, for the reasons shewed afore. Eighth, Especially if you add to all this, that nothing of the ministration of death written and engraven in stones, is brought by Jesus, or by his apostles, into the kingdom of Christ, as a part of his instituted worship. Hence it is said of that ministration in the bowels of which this seventh day sabbath is found, that it has now NO glory; that its glory is done away, in or by Christ, and so is laid aside, the ministration of the Spirit that excels in glory, being come in the room thereof. I will read the text to you. ‘But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [It was given at first with this proviso, that it should not always retain its glory, that sanction, as a ministration]. How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which was done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious’ (2 Cor 3:7–11).
And in that he saith ‘There remains a rest,’ referring to that of David, what is it, if it signifies not, that the other rests remain not? There remains therefore a rest, a rest prefigured by the seventh day, and by the rest of Canaan, though they are fled and gone. ‘There remains a rest’; a rest which stands not now in signs and shadows, in the seventh day, or Canaan, but in the Son of God, and his kingdom, to whom, and to which the weary are invited to come for rest (Isa 28:12; Matt 11:20; Heb 4:11). Yet this casts not out the Christians holiday or sabbath: for that was not ordained to be a type or shadow of things to come, but to sanctify the name of their God in, and to perform that worship to him which was also in a shadow signified by the ceremonies of the law, as the epistle to the Hebrews doth plentifully declare.
Seventh, No man will, I think, deny but that Hebrews 4:4, 5 intends the seventh day sabbath, on which God rested from all his works; for the text doth plainly say so: yet may the observing reader easily perceive that both it, and the rest of Canaan also, made mention of verse 5 were typical, as to a day made mention of verses 7 and 8 which day he calls another. He would not afterwards have made mention of another day. If Joshua had given them rest, he would not. Now if they had not that rest in Joshua’s days, be sure they had it not by Moses; for he was still before. All the rests therefore that Moses gave them, and that Joshua gave them too, were but typical of another day, in which God would give them rest (Heb 4:9, 10). And whether the day to come, was Christ, or Heaven, it makes no matter: it is enough that they before did fail, as always shadows do, and that therefore mention by David is, and that afterward, made of another day. ‘There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.’ A rest to come, of which the seventh day in which God rested, and the land of Canaan, was a type; which rest begins in Christ now, and shall be consummated in glory.
Sixth, Thus Paul writes to the church of Colosse. ‘Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ’ (Col 2:16, 17). Here also, as he serveth other holy days, he serveth the sabbath. He gives a liberty to believers to refuse the observation of it, and commands that no man should judge against them for their so doing. And as you read, the reason of his so doing is, because the body, the substance is come. Christ saith he, is the body, or that which these things were a shadow or figure of. ‘The body is of Christ.’
Fifth, I find by reading God’s word, that Paul by authority apostolical, takes away the sanctions of all the Jews’ festivals and sabbaths. This is manifest, for that he leaves the observation or non-observation of them, as things indifferent, to the mind and discretion of the believers. ‘One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind’ (Rev 14:5). By this last clause of the verse, ‘Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind,’ he doth plainly declare, that such days are now stript of their sanction. For none of God’s laws, while they retain their sanction, are left to the will and mind of the believers, as to whether they will observe them or no. Men, I say, are not left to their liberty in such a case; for when a stamp of divine authority is upon a law, and abides, so long we are bound, not to our mind, but to that law: but when a thing, once sacred, has lost its sanction, then it falls, as to faith and conscience, among other common or indifferent things. And so the seventh day sabbath did. Again,
They do it, I say, for good reasons; reason drawn from the scripture; or rather, for that the scripture draws them so to conclude: yet they cast not away the morality of a sabbath of rest to the church. It is to be granted them, that time for God’s worship abideth for ever, but the seventh day vanishes as a shadow and sign; because such indeed it was, as the scripture above cited declares as to the sanction thereof as a sabbath. The law of nature then calls for time; but the God of nature assigns it, and has given power to his Son to continue SUCH time as himself shall by his eternal wisdom judge most meet for the churches of the Gentiles to solemnize worship to God by him in. Hence he is said to be ‘Lord even of the sabbath day’ (Matt 12:8).
Fourth, The seventh day sabbath, as such, was a sign and shadow of things to come; and a sign cannot be the thing signified and substance too. Wherefore when the thing signified or substance, is come, the sign or thing shadowing ceaseth. And, I say, the seventh day sabbath being so, as a seventh day sabbath it ceaseth also. See again Exodus 31:13, 14; Ezekiel 20:12, 21; Colossians 2:14. Nor do I find that our Protestant writers, notwithstanding their reverence of the sabbath, do conclude otherwise; but that though time as to worshipping God, must needs be contained in the bowels of the moral law, as moral; yet they for good reasons forbear to affix the seventh day as that time there too
Now if these be the laws of the sabbath, this seventh day sabbath; and if God did never command that this sabbath should by his church be sanctified without them: and, as was said before, if these ceremonies have been long since dead and buried, how must this sabbath be kept? Let men take heed, lest while they plead for law, and pretend themselves to be the only doers of God’s will, they be not found the biggest transgressors thereof. And why can they not as well keep the other sabbaths? As the sabbath of months, of years, and the jubilee? For this, as I have shewed, is no moral precept, it is only a branch of the ministration of death and condemnation.
If they say, they retain the day, but change their manner of observation thereof; I ask, who has commanded them so to do? This is one of the laws of this sabbath. ‘Thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake. And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the Lord. And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the Lord. Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant’ (Lev 24:5–8). You may see also other places, as Numbers 28:9, 10; Nehemiah 13:22 and Ezekiel 46:4.
Third. This seventh day sabbath has lost its ceremonies (those unto which before you are cited by the texts) which was with it imposed upon the old church for her due performance of worship to God thereon. How then can this sabbath now be kept? Kept, I say, according to law. For if the church on which it was first imposed, was not to keep it, yea, could not keep it legally without the practising of those ceremonies: and if those ceremonies are long ago dead and gone, how will those that pretend to a belief of a continuation of the sanction thereof, keep it, I say, according as it is written?
3. By telling of them it is a ministration that tendeth to blind the mind, and to veil the heart as to the knowledge of their Christ: so that they cannot, while under that, behold his beauteous face, but as their heart shall turn from it to him (2 Cor 3). 4. And that they might not be left in the dark, but perfectly know what ministration it is that he means, he saith expressly, it is that ‘written and engraven in stones.’ See again 2 Corinthians 3. And in that ministration it is that this seventh day sabbath is found. But shall we think that the apostle speaks any thing of all here said, to wean saints off from the law of nature, as such! No verily, that he retains in the church, as being managed there by Christ: but THIS ministration is dangerous now, because it cannot be maintained in the church, but in a way of contempt to the ministration of the Spirit, and is derogatory to the glory of that. Now these, as I said, are weaning considerations. No man, I do think, that knows himself, or the glory of a gospel ministration, can, if he understands what Paul says here, desire that such a ministration should be retained in the churches.
Second, I find, as I have shewed, that this seventh day sabbath is confined, not to the law of nature as such, but to that ministration of it which was given on Sinai: which ministration as it is come to an end as such, so it is rejected by Paul as a ministration no ways capable of abiding in the church now, since the ministration of the Spirit also hath taken its place (2 Cor 3). Wherefore instead of propounding it to the churches with arguments tending to its reception, he seeks by degrading it of its old lustre and glory, to wean the churches from any likement thereof: 1. By calling of it the ministration of death, of the letter, and of condemnation, a term most frightful, but no ways alluring to the godly. 2. By calling it a ministration that now has no glory, by reason of the exceeding glory of that ministration under which by the Holy Spirit the New Testament churches are. And these are weaning considerations (2 Cor 3).
First, Because we find not from the resurrection of Christ to the end of the Bible, anything written by which is imposed that seventh day sabbath upon the churches. Time, as I said, the law as moral requires; but that time we find no longer imposed. And in all duties pertaining to God and his true worship in his churches, we must be guided by his laws and testaments. By his old laws, when his old worship was in force; and by his new laws, when his new worship is in force. And he hath verily now said, ‘Behold, I make all things new’ (Rev 21:5).
So then, that law is still moral, and still supposes, since it teaches that there is a God, that time must be set apart for his church to worship him in, according to that will of his that he had revealed in his word. But though by that law time is required; yet by that, as moral, the time never was prefixed. The time then of old was appointed by such a ministration of that law as we have been now discoursing of; and when that ministration ceaseth, that time did also vanish with it. And now by our new law-giver, the Son of God, he being ‘lord also of the sabbath day,’ we have a time prefixed, as the law of nature requireth, a new day, by him who is the lord of it; I say, appointed, wherein we may worship, not in the oldness of that letter written and engraven in stones, but according to, and most agreeing with, his new and holy testament. And this I confirm further by those reasons that now shall follow.
Now in the law, as moral, we conclude a time propounded, but no seventh day sabbath enjoined. But in that law, as thus ministered, which ministration is already out of doors; we find a seventh day; that seventh day on which God rested, on which God rested from all his works, enjoined. What is it then? Why the whole ministration as written and engraven in stones being removed, the seventh day sabbath must also be removed; for that the time nor yet the day, was as to our holy sabbath, or rest, moral; but imposed with that whole ministration, as such, upon the church, until the time of reformation: which time being come, this ministration, as I said, as such, ceaseth; and the whole law, as to the morality of it, is delivered into the hand of Christ, who imposes it now also; but not as a law of works, nor as that ministration written and engrave in stones, but as a rule of life to those that have believed in him (1 Cor 9:21).
6. It was given to Israel also in the hand of Moses, as mediator, to shew, or typify out, that the law of grace was in after times to come to the church of Christ by the hand and mediation of Jesus our Lord (Gal 3:19; Deut 5:5; Heb 8:6; 1 Tim 2:5; Heb 9:15; 12:24). 7. As to this ministration, it was to continue but ‘till the seed should come’; and then must, as such, give place to a better ministration (Gal 3:19). ‘A better covenant, established upon better promises’ (Heb 8:6). From all this therefore I conclude, that there is a difference to be put between the morality of the law, and the ministration of it upon Sinai. The law, as to its morality was before; but as to this ministration, it was not till the church was with Moses, and he with the angels on Mount Sinai in the wilderness.
2. The very stones in which this law was engraven, was a figure of the tables of the heart. The first two were a figure of the heart carnal, by which the law was broken: the last two, of the heart spiritual, in which the new law, the law of grace is written and preserved (Exo 34:1; 2 Cor 3:3). 3. The very mount on which this ministration was given, was typical of Mount Zion. See Hebrews 12 where they are compared (vv 18–22). 4. Yea, the very church to whom that ministration was given, was a figure of the church of the gospel that is on Mount Zion. See the same scripture, and compare it with Acts 7:38; Revelation 14:1–5. 5. That ministration was given in the hand and by the disposition of angels, to prefigure how the new law or ministration of the Spirit was to be given afterwards to the churches under the New Testament by the hands of the angel of God’s everlasting covenant of grace, who is his only begotten Son (Isa 63:9; Mal 3:1; Acts 3:22, 23).
That ministration cannot be moral for three reasons. 1. It commenced not when morality commenced, but two thousand years after. 2. It was not universal as the law, as moral, is; it was given only to the church of the Jews in those tables. 3. Its end is past as such a ministration, though the same law as to the morality thereof abides. Where are the tables of stone and this law as therein contained? We only, as to that, have the notice of such a ministration, and a rehearsal of the law, with that mode of giving of it, in the testament of God. But to come to particulars. 1. The very preface to that ministration carrieth in it a type of our deliverance from the bondage of sin, the devil, and hell. Pharaoh, and Egypt; and Israel’s bondage there, being a type of these.
Now before I shew the grounds of my questioning of it, I shall enquire into the nature of that ministration in the bowels of which this seventh day sabbath is placed. And, First, I say, as to that, the nature of that law is moral, but the ministration, and circumstances thereunto belonging, are shadowish and figurative. By the nature of it, I mean the matter thereof: by the ministration and circumstances thereto belonging, I do mean the giving of it by such hands, at such a place and time, in such a mode, as when it was given to Israel in the wilderness. The matter therefore, to wit, ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength’: and ‘thy neighbour as thyself,’ is everlasting (Mark 12:29–31), and is not from Sinai, nor from the two tables of stone, but in nature; for this law commenced and took being and place that day in which man was created. Yea, it was concreate with him, and without it he cannot be a rational creature, as he was in the day in which God created him. But for the ministration of it from Sinai, with the circumstances belonging to that ministration, they are not moral, nor everlasting, but shadowish and figurative only.
QUESTION IV Whether the seventh day sabbath did not fall, as such, with the rest of the Jewish rites and ceremonies? Or whether that day, as a sabbath, was afterwards by the apostles imposed upon the churches of the Gentiles? I would now also, before I shew the grounds of my proposing this question, premise what is necessary thereunto; to wit, That time and day were both fixed upon by law, for the solemn performance of divine worship among the Jews; and that time and day is also by law fixed, for the solemnizing of divine worship to God in the churches of the Gentiles. But that the seventh day sabbath, as such, is that time, that day, that still I question.
Take your time, Whitetigie. Thank you SOO much for taking the time write this all out. I appreciate you.
Notice the term “lay something aside” in 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Greenfield, in his Lexicon, translates the Greek term, ‘by one’s self, i.e., at home. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 does not prove that the Corinthian church was assembled for public worship on that day; but, on the contrary, it proves that each must be at his own home where he could examine his worldly affairs, and lay by himself in store as God had prospered him. If each one should thus, from week to week, collect his earnings, when the apostle should come their bounty would be ready, and each would be able to present to him what he had gathered. ESRS 15.1
this is taking me forever to write things out 😆
ESV, NASB, CBS all translate it as “Sabbath rest.”
Where does it say that the “Sabbath was not rest enough??” Actually, it says that some people were NOT KEEPING IT!
I don’t know.... That’s a verse i didn’t look up that Whitetigie used...
Just because Paul happened to break bread on Sunday doesn’t make it a Holy day. According to that logic, since Acts 2:42 says that the early church broke bread together daily... does that make every day Holy?
Also Acts 13:33 doesn’t constitute as proof of a change in the day of worship....
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the NEW covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
How does Matthew 28:51-52 show that Sunday is the new Sabbath??
In other words, God blessed the Seventh Day and made it a time of rest. Some of the Israelites refused to keep it. so He again reiterated a rest day. And so Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews) says that “there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.” Mind you, “people of God.” that means all who believe in Jesus.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:9 So then, there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God.”
Hebrews 4:6-7 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day....”
Hebrews 4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”
You mentioned Hebrews 4:10. That is one of my favorite passages in Scripture on the Sabbath because it CLEARLY states that the 7th day is to be kept.
2 Corinthians 3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of condemnation from you? You You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Holy Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. And we have such trust through Christ to God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
on Colossians 2:16-17: Notice that the word “sabbaths” is plural. In all the previous texts you gave, the word “Sabbath” was always singular. Why? because when you say “sabbaths” you mean the seven ANNUAL sabbaths outlined that the Jews observed, namely: 1. The first day of unleavened bread. 2. The seventh day of that feast. 3. The day of Pentecost. 4. The first day of the seventh month. 5. The tenth day of that month. 6. The fifteenth day of that month. 7. The twenty-second day of the same. In addition to all these, every seventh year was to be the sabbath of the land, and every fiftieth year the year of jubilee. There were 7 ANNUAL SABBATHS and these are the ones Paul is saying we need not keep. I have proof that this is the case, by studying the usage of the word “Sabbath” and “sabbaths” in the OT.
the passage you quoted from Leviticus 24 says the Sabbath is an “everlasting covenant.” Why would God lie by saying the Israelites are to keep the Sabbath forever, but then do the opposite? The Sabbath is not a ceremony any more than lying or stealing is.
“The reason for that is. when Jesus died on the cross and resurrected, he made ALL THINGS NEW.” Um, Jesus actually told John that He will make “all things new” at Jesus’ second coming, not when He was resurrected.
on Exodus 20:12: I believe you mean EZEKIEL 20:12. and again just because God gave the Israelites the Sabbath does NOT mean that He gave it ONLY to them. We know that Abraham kept the Sabbath because Genesis 26:5 clearly states that Abraham was blessed ONLY because he kept God’s “commandments.”
not for me falling asleep for answering your post 😂
The reason for that is, when Jesus died on the cross and resurrected, he made ALL THINGS NEW
“The Sabbath was meant for the Jews to keep, to distinguish them from other nations.” 1. on Exodus 16:29: God was addressing the Israelite nation, so naturally He would use a personal pronoun to address them. That does not show that the Sabbath was meant only for the Jews. 2. on Exodus 31:16: Has it ever occurred to you that the Apostles were Jewish? Why, then, do you say that they didn’t keep the Sabbath after Christ’s resurrection? if they didn’t, obviously the Sabbath wasn’t a “perpetual covenant” that the “children of Israel forever” were to keep. So if this verse was indicating that ONLY the Jews are to keep the Sabbath, then why in the world did the apostles, according to you, not keep the Sabbath?
Whitetigie wrote: “The Israelites did not know the Sabbath before Moses and the Ten Commandments.” Unfortunately, that is incorrect. The first mention of rest on the seventh day is Genesis 2:1-3. Then we hear about the Sabbath in Exodus 16 when the Israelites were given manna to eat. Notice something. These two incidents of God proclaiming a rest day happened BEFORE Moses received the 10 Commandments. Besides, the fourth commandment starts with the word “REMEMBER.” How could the Israelites remember about something unless they had already known it?
Whitetigie, thank you writing all that!! You’re doing a fantastic job. however, I have a few disagreements I would like to share if you don’t mind.😊
I'm super tired 😆 but I'm not done
From the resurrection of Christ nothing was written that imposed the seventh day Sabbath among the churches. We should be guided by His old laws when His old worship was in force and by his new laws when his new worship is in force. And He said in Revelation 21:5 the He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
The not A first day, they collected money for the poor saints 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: On the FIRST day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as He may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
Again, the first day, the disciples meet Acts 20:7 Now on the FIRST day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.
On the first day he begat His Son from the dead Acts 13:33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. And it is also written in the second psalm: "You are my Son, TODAY I have begotten You."
Also, some of the saints that slept arose when Jesus did Matthew 27:51-52 and the graves were opened, and many of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Now it's fifth 😂 the first day of the week is honored by God and on this day He rested from His work of redemption Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His REST has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Fifth, the Jewish Sabbath was a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or SABBATHS, which are the SHADOW of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Ezekiel 24:4 The burnt offerings that the Prince offers to the Lord on the SABBATH Day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish;
Nehemiah 13:22 And I commanded the Levies that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should go and guard the gates, to sanctify the SABBATH Day.
Numbers 28:3 Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Command the children of Israel...And on the SABBATH day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and with two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering─this is the burnt offering for EVERY SABBATH, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering...
Third, the ceremonies which were commanded to be performed as the Sabbath worship, can no longer be observed Leviticus 24 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "Command the children of Israel...EVERY SABBATH he shall set in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel as an everlasting covenant...
Exodus 20:12 Moreover I also gave THEM My Sabbaths, to be a sign between THEM and Me, that THEY may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies THEM.
Exodus 31:16 Therefore the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed."
Second, the Sabbath was meant for the Jews to keep, to distinguish them from other nations Exodus 16:29 See! For the Lord has given YOU the Sabbath;...
Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; THEREFORE the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
So, first of all, the Israelites did not know the Sabbath before Moses and the ten commandments Nehemiah 9:13-14 You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from Heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. You MADE KNOWN to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.
Proof is coming any second
Wonderful, magnificent, Biblical truth/proof
Would you like to "hear" it? 😆
yeah, and since you have proved that point the Bible says”the seventh day is the sabbath of the lord your god, in it you shall do not work”so do tell, when did the sabbath change(give me a specific verse, no one has correctly met this challenge yet)
Yes. But that is not possible, scientifically and historically. We have records of the week from Julius Caesar’s time till now. Julius Caesar lived decades before Jesus was born. Therefore we know that the order of the days have not changed. The Saturday that exists now is the same as the Saturday that Jesus kept in His time.
Do you know that some people say that Sunday is the seventh day of the week?
the Mormon explained some of their religion. I wanted to ask them some questions though
huh, someone was Mormon who I debated with, I’m not quite sure who though. their thoughts were really interesting, anyone here Mormon?
Shannon, that is so true!! LIV, thank you so much for your prayers!! They are so very much appreciated. Don’t hesitate to shout-out your opinion!!
good, I always liked when you debated with me, are you Mormon? I seem to remember you being Mormon. we had a Mormon come to our house and try to convince us their faith yesterday😜
Liv
Saturday, Feb 15, 2020 at 11:48 AM
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Oh wow guys!!! There are SO many posts!!Sadly i really don't have time to debate. But will be praying 4 u guys!!❤
sorry, I messed up in one of them it's supposed to say and of mirth, and it says and of North 😂 I just remembered as I was reading it
so I'm adding a lot of my own things, but I'm using the titles of the points someone else made, it's kinda confusing 😂
I got most of the information about it from a service I was in about it but I didn't take very good notes 😆
No, no shoot right ahead! Thank you for the work you’re putting into it! It’s fantastic.
😂 is it too much? There are still 2 more points 😂
Super interesting, Whitetigie! Thank you for sharing!! I was blessed.
That was the second point 😆
So I became great and excelled more than all who were before me in Jerusalem. Also my wisdom remained with me. Whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I did not withhold my heart from any pleasure, for my heart rejoiced in all my labor; and this was my reward from all my labor. Then I looked on all that my hands had done and on the labor on which I toiled; and indeed all was vanity and grasping for the wind. There was not profit under the sun
I made myself great, I made myself houses and planted myself vineyards, I made myself gardens and orchards, and I planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. I made myself water pools from which to water the growing trees of the grove. I acquired male and female servants, and I had servants born in my house. Yes, I had greater possession of herds and flocks than all who were in Jerusalem before me. I also gathered for myself silver and gold and the special treasures of kings and of the provinces. I acquired male and female singers, the delights of the sons of men, and musical instruments of all kinds.
Then he gathers possessions Ecclesiastes 2:1-11 I said in my heart, "Come now, I will test you with mirth; therefore enjoy pleasjre; but surely, this also was vanity. I said of laughter─"Madness!"; and of North, "What does it accomplish?" I searched in my heart how to gratify my flesh with wine, while guarding my heart with wisdom, and how to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was good for the sons of men to do under heaven all the days of their lives.
I'll try again but separate it, maybe there were too many pixels 😂😂😂
I’m just kidding, that wouldn’t do anything even if you did say you agreed😂, and yes please get content4thefaith on this group, I don’t want him spoiling final events SDA cause it is so unites, this group is much more friendly and agreeable in debates
it literally took me 20 minutes! 😆
I just typed a whole new section and it didn't post it 😂
hey Shannon, agree with me or I will tell everyone what your name is😈
It took me 8 minutes just to type that?! 😂
Ecclesiastes 1:14-18 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and indeed, it is all vanity and grasping for the wind. What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is lacking cannot be numbered. I have communed with my heart, saying, "Look, I have attained Greatness, and have gained more wisdom than all who were before me in Jerusalem. My heart has understood great wisdom and Knowledge." And I set my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is grasping for the wind. For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow."
I forgot it goes on through verse 18 😆 In verses 12-18 he starts his quest
2.ᎢᎻᎬ QᏌᎬᏚᎢ After explaining about life under the sun, he tells us about human wisdom Ecclesiastes 1:12-13 I, the Preacher, was king over Israel and Jerusalem. And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised."
tbh, there's always at least one book on my bed 😂
Got it, totally understandable 😉 I'll post the next point in a sec I just have to find my notes 😆 and my bed is literally littered with literature 😂 sorry I mean my bed has a ton of books on it 😉
Hey! I hope we can move our discussion hear we need to get contend4thefaith her and We need Marylen too
Should I post the second point now?
lol idk maybe 😆 that was only the first point 😂
Whitetigie, so interesting? I think you have the makings of a theologian in you!! are you planning to follow your father’s footsteps and become a theologian?
FYI: I didn’t write that, it’s from a very helpful book that I’ve read which, to me, does a fantastic job in explaining. I will cover the other verses later. I just have to finish compiling my rebuttal to them.
Paul wished to be loosed, or set free, from earth. He earnestly longed not to live longer on the earth, nor to die and be buried in the earth, but to be caught up from the earth, to meet the Lord in the air, and to be “for ever with the Lord.” He did not, however, live to see the fulfillment of his heart’s desire, as he suffered a martyr’s death. But he “died in faith,” awaiting the “crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give” him “at that day: and not to” him “only, but unto all them also that love his appearing” (2 Timothy 4:8).
The deep feelings, yes, the fervent desire, of the great apostle in his lonely confinement, as he contemplated this blessed hope of being with Christ, was to “depart” (analuo), as of a ship from port, or a prisoner from confinement. Paul’s wish was not to become a discarnate ghost-spirit, as some have interpreted, but to realize the Christian’s hope. It was one of the two designated means of being with Christ—there being no other way. There is thus no conflict or inconsistency here.
Paul’s “desire to depart” was mentioned in the midst of his discussion of the alternatives of life amid many perils, and dying and being at rest. He at first did not know which he should choose. But there appears this third consideration, which was “far, far better”—to “depart,” or go to be with Christ through translation, and thus be personally with Christ without dying. That was his heart’s deepest desire.
This was “very far [pollo mallon, “much more”; “far, far”—Weymouth] better”—a double comparative. “Better” than what? Clearly, than either of the two he had just mentioned (living or dying). Therefore it cannot mean death, but some event or means by which alone Paul could be with Christ—by being “caught up” alive (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17) through translation, either at the Advent, or a special translation, as with Enoch and Elijah. Paul had been in a strait between the first two, having difficulty in choosing between them. But the third alternative ended all indecision.
To the two alternatives (to “live” or to “die”), upon which he could not make up his mind, Paul now adds a third choice, which was his deep desire—and that was to “depart” and “to be with Christ,” which is “very far better” (Philippians 1:23, R.V., A.R.V.). That would be to be caught up with Christ, through translation, to meet the Lord in the air when Christ comes to be “glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ... in that day” (2 Thessalonians 1:10). This sound solution has been set forth by various reputable scholars back through the years, with no theory on the nature of men to sustain.
We should now note carefully Paul’s comparison when he speaks of “departing” to be with Christ as “far better.” It was not that to die was better than to live, and that he therefore desired to die. The desire of his heart was to be “with Christ,” or “with the Lord,” which is vastly different.
Therefore it is not at death but at the resurrection of the dead that the saints will be ushered into the presence of Christ. And for this Christ must first return from Heaven. It is only when He comes again that He will receive us unto Himself (John 14:3). Again, “when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). Paul told the Romans that he, with them, awaited “the redemption of our body” (Romans 8:23). This is the glorious “change” about which Paul wrote to the Philippians, when he said: “A Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory” (Philippians 3:20, 21, A.R.V.). That occurs only at the Second Advent (1 Corinthians 15:51, 54)..
We are told there will be “fulness of joy” in Christ’s presence (Psalm 16:11). But those who are fallen asleep are not yet enjoying that presence. If they were, the resurrection would be unnecessary. And as stated, Paul makes all life beyond the grave depend on resurrection. Thus the saints of old were “tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection” (Hebrews 11:35). Again, “if there be no resurrection of the dead,” “then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished” (1 Corinthians 15:13, 18). They are consequently not in Heaven. And once more, the sleeping saints of the ages do not go to Jesus before the saints living at the time of the Advent (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).
It would follow that, on the premise of the Immortal-Soulist, the saints would already possess the fullest transformation that they could ever look for and obtain, and thus long anticipate Christ’s actual personal advent. But such a view brings a denial of an antecedent resurrection uniformly taught by Paul. Either that, or it implies that the resurrection occurs at death, and is already past (2 Timothy 2:18), which Paul likewise condemned as a heresy. Paul repeatedly went on record as to when the Christian goes to be with his Lord. Here is the Pauline testimony. It is an eight-strand cable of evidence—so strong that it cannot be broken:
The notion that during the state of death believers are “with Christ” in a state of life in Heaven, involves an inescapable denial of one of the cardinal doctrines of Scripture—the sleep of all the dead, in gravedom. Further, if the deceased saints were already with Christ in glory, and were able to see Him “as he is,” they would already have been changed into the “likeness” of Christ (1 John 3:2). But here is the timing for that change according to Scripture: “But we know that, when he [Christ] shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
It is commonly assumed by the Immortal-Soulist that one goes into the presence of Christ immediately upon death. But the text states nothing of the kind. There are many verses pointing that we will go into His presence only at the Second Advent and the concurrent resurrection. Entrance into Christ’s presence is therefore a future event, to be experienced simultaneously by all saints alike—except for those privileged few who have a prior special resurrection (like Moses), or special translation (like Elijah), both of whom appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. But in either case, it is still only by resurrection or translation. Clearly, then, it is by resurrection or translation, there being no other way of going to be “with Christ” (John 5:21, 29; 1 Thessalonians 4:17).
The intermediate state has been injected into this passage, but the text is totally silent on the condition of the dead. That is not the point. Surely, if all the prophets and apostles, and saints and martyrs were already in Heaven, death would indeed be more desirable—if that were the pathway to Heaven.
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself went down into death. But it was not the prospect of death that filled Him with joy—except as He was fulfilling His Father’s will and providing salvation for man. His joy was over the fact that God would not leave His soul in she’ol (the grave) nor suffer His “Holy One to see corruption” (Psalm 16:9, 10). Christ “passed into the heavens” (Hebrews 4:14), and now ministers for us in the presence of the Father (Romans 7:23-27). But that was through the designated resurrection and ascension provision. On the contrary, the worthies of old passed into the earth, the grave, and are dependent upon the living Son of God to come forth from the heavens to call them from their graves (John 5:28, 29).
The intervening period between death and the return of the Lord would, for the sleeper, be annihilated, and the glories of the eternal world, through the resurrection, would open instantly, as it were, upon his view. The waiting period, however long, is an utter blank—seemingly but a moment of time, like the twinkling of an eye. The very moment he would regain consciousness, upon the call of the Life-giver, he would be in the presence of Christ. So he need not actually wait a single conscious moment, for, we repeat, those who are sound asleep have no awareness of the passing of time.
I believe that to Paul, death was a state of unconsciousness for the sleeper, as he so often and clearly taught, with no conscious lapse of time between death and the resurrection. He knew that, after he had lost consciousness in death, the next moment of awareness would be the hearing of the voice of the returning Christ, calling him to arise and be with his Lord forever. The first face he would look upon would be that of his beloved Life-giver. Thus he could say, “For me ... to die is gain” (Philippians 1:21). But how could death be “gain” if it reduced him to a state of unconsciousness? Just as it would be to Job, who entreated, “O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave” (Job 14:13).
He had a desire to end this mortal pilgrimage. He could well say that to die is “gain,” for he would then be at rest. But the cause of God and his sympathetic heart drew him to remain here in labor if acquitted. On the other hand, his own weariness and sufferings were an urge for rest in the sleep of death. He was in a quandary. These strong pulls were just about balanced, though he did think it more needful for him to remain to give the benefit of his counsel and labors to the church. Thus “gain” to the cause of Christ would come by martyrdom, and there would be gain to himself as a martyr through the resurrection, for in his affliction any form of death would be a release. Thus he reasoned.
Paul was “in a strait” (sunechomai, “being pressed”) “betwixt” the two alternatives of “to live,” or “to die.” “For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain,” he wrote. In the context Paul had just said that Christ would be “magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.” So, if Paul lived, Christ would be “magnified” (Philippians 1:20), and the church profited (Philippians 1:24). If he died, Christ would still be “magnified” (Philippians 1:20), and it would still be “gain” to Christ. Paul had been beaten eight times and stoned once. He had been in perils of waters, robbers, the Jews, false Christians, the heathen, perils in the city, the wilderness, and on the sea, and had been times innumerable in weariness, pain, sickness, hunger, thirst, cold, and nakedness (2 Corinthians 11:23-27).
If we go to be with the Lord by means of our immortal spirit when we die, then we do not go by means of, and at, His visible coming and the miraculous resurrection of the dead and the translation change of the living. In such an event Paul is made to falsify and deceive. There is no way to avoid such a conclusion. It must be clear that the descent of the Lord from Heaven, the mighty shout, the voice of the archangel, the sound of the trump of God—and the resurrection of the dead, or the change of the living—do not take place at death.
The “so” (houtos), which is emphatic in the original, emphasizes the fact that not by our dying but by our Lord’s descending from Heaven, at His second advent, shall both the living saints and the sleeping saints enter the Lord’s presence together in the grand home going. “So” means “in this way,” “in this manner,” “by this means.” That is how we shall ever “be with the Lord.” Therefore, when Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 describes the sole way and precise method by which we are to go to be with the Lord, he thereby precludes every other means. There is no other way save by (1) resurrection, or (2) translation.
To the Thessalonians he wrote of this in its inseparable relation to the Second Advent: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain [at the Advent] shall be caught up together with them [the resurrected saints] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Paul expressly declared, “I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you” (Acts 20:20). He did keep back, however, everything concerning any disembodied immortal soul or spirit. Again, he said, “I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God” (Acts 20:27). But he never uttered a single syllable about an immortal soul or a deathless spirit in man.
Paul determined that under all circumstances Christ should be magnified in his “body,” whether by his life or by his death. Life and death are here tied in, by Paul, with his body, not primarily his soul, or spirit. There is not a word in the entire recital about a separate soul or discarnate spirit. If Paul meant that his real, inner self was a conscious immortal soul, which would leave the body at death to go to be with the Lord, then, we ask, why did he not once say so some place in the one hundred chapters of his various epistles—comprising more than a third of the entire New Testament. But let us pause a moment for two texts.
I think it would be appropriate to look at the historical background of this passage. The background for Paul’s famous Philippian passage is this: Some ten years had passed since Paul had preached the gospel at Philippi. During his third missionary journey Paul was beaten by a mob at Jerusalem and brought before the Sanhedrin (Acts 22:30). Paul there skillfully divided the opposing Pharisees and Sadducees by referring to the doctrine of the resurrection. He was then sent, under duress, to Felix the governor. But his trial was deferred for two years, being resumed under Festus in A.D. 59. Paul then appealed to Caesar, and Festus ordered him sent to Rome for trial.
Here is the text of this famous “depart, and be with Christ” passage in Philippians: “According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot [gnorizo, “declare”] not. For I am in a strait [sunechomai, “being pressed”] betwixt [the] two [living and dying, having a desire to depart (analusai, “return”)], and to be with Christ; which is far better: nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:20-24).
wait. help me. what are we debating about?
and I’m really interested for someone to say when the sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday🙂I havn’t found anywhere
did anyone see what I said before?🤨 I’m not sure. so if Jesus died on Friday, and the priests wanted him down early so the bodies wouldn’t hang on the sabbath, then obviously since he also rose on Sunday that means Saturday is the sabbath.
Then he starts describing life under the sun Ecclesiastes 1:4-11 "One generation passes away, and another generation comes; but the earth abides forever. The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it arose. The wind goes toward the south, and turns around to the north; the wind whirls around continually, and cones again on its circuit. All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full; to the place from which the rivers come, there they return again. All things are full of labor, man cannot express it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear with hearing. That which has been is what will be, that which is done will be Done, and there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is New"? It has already been in ancient times before us. There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come by those who will come after."
man from all his labor In which he toils under the sun?"
1. ᎢᎻᎬ ᏢᎡᎾᏴᏞᎬᎷ In Ecclesiastes 1:1-3, Solomon is talking about the vanity of life. Ecclesiastes 1:1-3 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, King in Jerusalem. "Vanity of Vanities," Says the Preacher; "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. What profit has a
So, Ecclesiastes has 4 main points, let's talk about the first first 😂
Ok I'm back, now you can hear my "expertise" on Ecclesiastes 😆
I gtg but I'll brb in a bit 😬
I totally agree that his point of view is looking at the darker side. But I don’t think that he’s wrong on his viewpoint of death (LOL.) I think the wisest thing to do is to compare scripture with scripture and allow God’s Word to interpret itself. So now this leads me to the question. Solomon contends (and I do to) that when both the righteous and wicked die, they don’t know anything. This talking about the FIRST death. Can you please show me verses in the Bible that show that during the FIRST DEATH (not the second) people are in Heaven or Hell immediately? do you get what I mean?
Ava, you are correct, he was testing life under the sun, I could explain the whole book of Ecclesiastes because of the study I did on it 😉
Ecclessiastes, it is Solomon exploring life without God, life under the sun. Whenever something is refered to as under the sun, it means life on earth without God. That's why Solomon says life is vanity, or the hebrew Hevel, which means vapor or cloud. With God life has purpose and there is life after death. Without God life is meaningless and when you die youre done and nothing happens. NOTE: I'm saying life without God as in life without a God exsisting. Like as an atheist, from their perspective you die and nothing more is there.
I totally disagree that Solomon’s perspectives are skewed. Certainly chapter 12:1 isn’t a “skewed” perspective. There is wisdom in what he says.
yep, I can tell you where she got it
Precisely, Whitetigie. Shannon wrote that Solomon said such a thing and I was wondering where she read that.
Yeah I know, and I was just answering 😉
Whitetigie, I’m sorry. I was tagging a post Shannon wrote...
Solomon never says she Should eat, drink and be merry, since we're going to die
If you take that position, you’re going to have to believe that when Solomon wrote Proverbs they were just proverbs, old wives tales that mustn’t be taken seriously.... Are you sure you want to take such a position? that will undercut completely your alcohol argument....
Sri, its the date and time the person wrote the post
I don’t get what Fri Feb 14 1:58 PM means??
Where does Solomon say that “we should just eat, drink, and be merry, since we’re going to die?”
Loved by Jesus, I could explain the book of Ecclesiastes if you would like
Even if Ecclesiastes is full of sarcasm, it would NEVER contradict the Bible. Sarcasm is only effective when it mocks something true. So unfortunately just because it is “sarcasm” does not make it a falsehood or something untrue.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God; and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books
The unbelievers, when they die, they are judged by God, by the book of life as it says in Revelation 20:12
So let’s keep the two deaths separate. What happens to the wicked when they die the first death?
I'm sorry but you cracked me up Teresa 😂
Loved by Jesus, in Ecclesiastes, there are 4 things he talks about: 1. The Problem, 2. The Quest, 3. The Discovery, and 4. The Conclusion
lol ok amigo is the Spanish word for friend
If we were on a boat id have you call me a mate I've got no idea about amigos i don't fell like pals or chums I would like companions or allies or friends dudes sounds to boyey so there you go!
Loved by Jesus, I remember recently doing a study on that and that at the beginning, Solomon said: Vanity, all vanity 😂 I think
good morning btw folks, dudes, friends, companions, allies, buddies, amigos, mates, pals, chums, or whatever you want me to call you 😆
Loved by Jesus, so my parents are missionaries to Peru, I have not been to Bolivia I don't think but I have been to Chile and have been to lots of places in Peru 😉
That’s so cool, Whitetigie! How long have you been there?
I didn’t answer all the questions, including the ones about the verses that could be interpreted as pointing to a eternal hell, but I will get to those a little later.
Another difference is in what happens to the righteous dead. Most Christians believe that the righteous souls will be in Heaven until the second coming when their bodies are reunited with their souls. Adventists believe that the righteous dead will stay in their grave until the Second Coming when Jesus will resurrect them with incorruptible bodies. Psalms 115:17 clears says that “The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.” Obviously, not even the righteous dead’s souls are alive in Heaven right now because if they were, they would be praising God. Actually, per the Bible, they are in “silence.” Ecclesiastes 9:5 is even more explicit: “The dead know nothing.” “It is the same for all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:2) “As the good one is, so is the sinner.” (Ecclesiastes 9:2) “The same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil.” (Ecclesiastes 9:2) Recap: what happens? Both the righteous and the wicked will die and they “know nothing.” Per verse 6, their love, hate, envy has perished with them. In other words, they don’t have any emotions anymore because they don’t know anything.
Talking to Loved by Jesus btw
Well the one he's at is actually in Peru it's called Seminario Teológico Bautista where does you dad teach?
Ezekiel 28:18 makes it clear that Satan, too, will be destroyed. This verse says he will be “consumed” by fire, “turned... to ashes.” Per Nahum 1:9, God will completely destroy sin: “He will make a complete end.” That doesn’t sound like God will keep people burning for all eternity if He’s going to “make a complete end” of them.
Those who haven’t accepted Christ as their personal Savior won’t have life, according to 1 John 5:12. “Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.” Obviously, the wicked don’t have life. If they don’t have life, they are dead. Common sense, right? If they are dead, how can they be alive in Hell?
Most Christians believe that Hellfire will rage for all eternity. Adventists believe that Hellfire will last until all the wicked become “ASHES,” until “the arrogant and all evildoers will be STUBBLE.” The wicked will be “ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them NEITHER root nor branch.” (Malachi 4:1, 3) In Hell, as Jesus said in Matthew 10:28, there will be “destroy[ed] BOTH SOUL and body in hell.” Notice the word “destroy.” So, per Jesus, our souls will be destroyed, effaced, annihilated. Why? Because “the wages of sin is death.” (Romans 6:23) “The soul who sins shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)
Most Christians believe that every soul is immortal and ALL, including the wicked, will live forever in Heaven or Hell. Adventists, however, believe that no soul is immortal. No where in the Bible do we read the term “Immortal Soul.” Neither is there any verse in the Bible that points to a never-perishing soul. In fact, the opposite exists. Ezekiel 18:4 says “The SOUL who sins shall die.” Clearly, if our souls can die, they are not immortal. Immortality/eternal life is a GIFT (per Romans 6:23). A gift invariably means that we do not have it already. Romans 2:7 says that people “seek for honor and glory and IMMORTALITY.” If our souls were immortal why seek for something we already have? Furthermore, 1 Timothy 6:16 says that Jesus Christ “alone has immortality.” Clearly, you and I are not Jesus; therefore we don’t have immortality.
Whitetigie, what a cool name! I’m SDA, FYI. Our views on Hell differ some compared to your views. Most Christians believe that Hell is burning right now. Adventists believe that Hell will start burning “at the end of the age” as Jesus said in Matthew 13:40 and 49.
I should have probably not said anything to when Larissa called me a “He.” 🤭 I don’t mind if you use the wrong pronoun. I’ll respond to both, lol. @Shannon, I rather not say but its probably obvious to you what I really am
I’m just gonna like say I am a boy just so everyone knows for sure
@Larissa, no getting an email would be awesome but I’ve never received one. Shannon wrote to me on another group that this group is getting active again 😉
Wait.... I’m a “He?” Where did that come from?
😂😂😂 nice to meet you too Ava, gtg to sleep but we can chat tomorrow if you would like, gn!
Ava
Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:45 PM
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Nice to meet you Whitetigie, I'm Ava if you can't tell
I'm Whitetigie if you can't tell 😉😆
Ava
Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:33 PM
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Hi
Ava
Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:24 PM
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I checked Final SDA... Legends won't load on my device and closed the app down. I've tried several times. Might have to pull my computer out tomorrow and see. But I can't get access until tomorrow so I'm gonna have to stick with about 2/3 of this
Ava
Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:14 PM
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Hi... I'm here... Gonna get caught up now
my oldest is in 2nd grade
Oh, my comment about denomination wasn't meant to discourage people from mentioning their denomination btw. I was just clarifying why I can't really put down a denomination after my name.
Larissa, now you know I'm not in elementary 😆
Shannon, I see. You guys have an underground network! You also got him to admit he's a "him" huh? Good to know ;]
lol Whitetigie, thanks for the info! I feel like I know you sooo much better now! haha
Also talking to Larissa 😂 I'm using CC right now it's pretty good definitely an option to consider, if you choose to do that, the math is separate, I used abeka till 6th then switched to Saxon and am using shorman now
Larissa, I personally think that no denomination can get every single thing right cause we are not perfect, I think I'm Baptist my parents are missionaries
I noticed on the Legend group that some of the verse collections are labeled as Classical conversation levels. Are any of you that are homeschooled in CC? I'm considering it next year for my kids but am still on the fence.
I'm Whitetigie, I'm as old as I am and I live somewhere in the world! 😂
For the Newbies, I don't really identify with a denomination. Since leaving Seventh-Day-Adventism almost exactly 2 years ago, I have come to realize there really isn't anyone who has it ALL right, and that's ok! I think that this mystery is a gift from God so we will dig into His word and seek him. My family and I do attend an Evangelical Free church which is a denomination if you haven't heard of it.
I guess I should introduce myself 😉
Hi Siri! Did you just happen to check in on this group at this time or do you get notified when someone posts something here?
Sometimes it's confusing 😉
I see, thanks for filling me in.
Here's a question: Did contend4faith change their name/picture? That was confusing to me. Are they in this group?
Looks like she took down everything that Rougeone said and a couple others. But I was still able to see the gist of it. I love you guys already! I admire your passion. Ok, still catching up on legends.
Ok, I'm starting to get a clearer picture of what everyone was trying to do. It was interesting to see the different ways that each of you approached the SDA group with the gospel. Personalities are so different, it is interesting to see. Let me look at the Legends group first and then I will come back.
Woah! This group has resurrected itself. I’ve really missed you, Larissa! And a warm welcome to the new members on here. Super excited to discuss with new members the Bible. always fantastic to do!!
Oh wow, I'll go look now! But also, I have to say I disagree with you. Most SDAs do need the gospel. But I don't think that telling them about hell is the gospel....
Welcome to all the new members! Quick question for you all before I go read what I've missed. Do you get a weekly email with all the posts from this message wall in it? I get one for other groups I'm in but not for the one I admin....
Wow that was long!!! Hopefully that helped a bit.
There are other verses. But I gtg. And u should read the whole chapter of the references that I posted down there. 😉
How could we say that about unbelieving loved ones? Only when we are made perfect. With our minds one with God's will. There is no pity or love in hell. On Earth the wicked enjoy that, but there is an expiration date. In the parable about Lazarus. The rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his family and tell them to repent but he is told " And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. " - Luke 16:31
Our hearts MUST be perfect and one with God's will!! Psalm 139:21-24 - " Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieves with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with PERFECT hatred: I count them mine enemies. Search me, O God, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. "
How can we live like that? Our unbelieving friends can't possibly be loved friends or relatives then. And how could we possibly bear under that? It has to be because we will have perfect conformity to God's will. Only friendships with Christ will extend over the river to heaven.
So in Isaiah 66 where it says that the righteous will see the carcases of the wicked, It could be like in that parable.
And in the parable in Luke 16. Luke 16:23-26 " And in hell lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cries and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime recievedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass us, that would come from thence. "
The verse says " their worm " and " their fire " so how could they be dead? Or be weeping and gnashing there teeth?
I don't believe that they will be die once they get to hell and will have no punishment. I have trouble with this, but I do believe that it is true. I believe that they will be as carcases after the end of the world. John 5:29 - " And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. " And in Isaiah 66:24 - " And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. "
And what about Luke 13:28 -, "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out " and Matthew 8:12 - "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. " If they are going to be in outer darkness and be weeping and gnashing there teeth, I don't see how they could be dead. Or only there souls be there.
But why would hell go on for ever and ever if the wicked got destroyed instantly? "Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. " - Mark 9:44; 46, and 48. ( Those 3 verses are identical in the KJV ) Why would there be worms that NEVER died , if there wasn't anyone in hell?
We cannot perfectly obey, or submit to God's will, because of the presence of sin. We are no longer under the law, but that doesn't mean that we make void of the law. The law cannot save it can only convict us. If there was no law, there would be no sin, because sin is the transgression of the law. But when you are saved you aren't burdened by the law. "Thy law is a delight" But you love and live by it. A Christian is under grace, but he still follows the law. They are God's commands and he loves them. But in this life we can never perfectly follow the law. We have our sins covered for, but our old habits still cling to us. Btw this is all in Romans. Especially chapter 6.
TRYING TO GET THERE! 😆 Because we are not perfect we will have trouble understanding why unbelievers will burn in hell for ever, unbelievers who once were our friends. But our minds and wills will be perfectly conformed to God's LAW and will.
Our purpose, our chief end, is THAT END! To bring glory to God. We should be wrapped up in that ONE thing.
Why doesn't the Lord save all? Well, his first concern is not the saving of wicked sinners, but his first concern is his own glory. Rev. 4:11 - " Thou art worthy, Oh Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. " Colossians 1:16 -For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: "
I believe based off of a bunch of verses and Matthew chapter 25 that there will be a day of final farewell. Where believers will say goodby to unbelievers forever. It will be a day, just as real as today was. Matthew 25:34 - " Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world " Matthew 25:41 - " Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: "
It will probably be long,
Scroll down to where this conversation starts and you'll be able to see by reading the posts 😉