ohhh ok thanks for clarifying 😅
Sorry, Markerman I meant to say what ME said. But I didn’t express it correctly.😅
unless Avery u meant what ME said and i misread 😅
Father Son Spirit one God makes sense to me but Son is Father doesnt 😅😅
yes but saying Jesus IS God the Father is different than what you said at least to me since it sounds like theyre the same person
ME
Tuesday, Mar 28, 2023 at 1:54 PM
remove
Jesus is God and equal and one with God the Father, which is confusing, but the Father, Son and Spirit are one God, equal and unified in purpose. Even tho Jesus is God, it doesn't mean He has the exact same role as God the Father still.
are you saying Jesus is the Son of God and God the Father the same time? 🤔🤔
seems like the marker group was deleted 🥲😢😭
It's actually Will's group 😅
@Anonymous (June 8 12:36 PM) I think Jesus did mean it because Jesus is also God the Father.
Markerman owns a group? Or are you talking about The Marker Group?😅
It’s called OSAS Affirmed
Whoops, sorry about that @franklyj 😅 I forgot to make the group public again...you should be able to find it now 😉
might be public again later
i think it was made private
@Will do you have your eternal security position written out anywhere else?
@markerman Where did your other group go? I really wanted to finish reading @Will 's writings.
hey, I want to know what you think about Sunday. I didn’t get to read the whole thing bc Marilyn deleted it.
where did all the action go
👋 there cannot be two paradises. buh bye 👋
Lol, thanks for the input! 😆
Just thought that needed to be said.. L O L 😄😆
Sorry to interrupt but, me seeing debates, really help me learn.. like, totally, I love watching and reading debates. Good stuff people 👏🏽👏🏽 But in a debate, one of ya will always be wrong... I’ve read some interesting points, statements, questions, ect in this group. Whoever made this group should be thanked, now ppl like me are learning by reading posts in this group. *Really educational*
Besides, it seems you're avoiding what I showed about the rich man and Lazurus. Since Jesus NEVER used fake concepts in his parables, then that proves that what is shown about Lazurus and the rich man after death is indeed true-to-life.
Since it appears from Scripture that the righteous dead did not go to heaven before Jesus' ascension (Eph 4:8-9), then the place in Sheol for the righteous dead (Abraham's bosom) was what Jesus was referring to when he said "paradise". Jesus wasn't asleep in the grave when he died, as it shows in Eph 4:8-9 and 1 Peter 3:19. If Jesus wasn't in soul sleep, then that proves that the other dead are not.
Roger, let use some logic. You think that Jesus really ment today you will be with me in paradise. Didn’t Jesus not go to heaven for three days?? So if he did not go to heaven for three days then why would he say that?? Did he actually mean today??
Sorry I saw you posted some of this. I didn't read everything.
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible,
@Anonymousy, I just hopped back in because I have more time right now.😉
Yeah about the Luke 23:43 verse, how can you just change the Bible because you think it was written wrong it's still what it says.🤔 Also good point Roger, it would be completely unnecessary to say today, obviously it was that day.( sorry that was way down there)
wow! you guys really went at it!
That's debatable, so let's just look at it from the perspective I gave in my former posts ⬇⬇
first. Do you think it is not a parable?
Srry Roger! I was very busy the last couple of days so I couldn’t answer your question😅… Nw to answer it…
Btw, the Greek word for hell there is Hades, which means: "properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell." Also, when it says "Abraham's bosom" or "side" it never says that everyone was on Abraham's bosom. It just said that the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's side. While the other righteous dead were in "Abraham's bosom" it simply indicates a place of comfort and consolation, where Abraham and the other righteous dead were.
Regardless of whether the story was a parable or not, "while the parables are fictitious, they never indulge in the fanciful or fantastic, but remain true-to-life." You have to look at it in the context of all the other parables Jesus told. Did any of them use fake or fictional concepts? Never. Not once.
Roger I ask one thing of you pls don’t skim this, but read it
Jesus was using something they had known in their time as an illustration. He added some things to make is a little bit more interesting. To make it penetrating upon his listeners. Now one listening to Jesus would have thought in there wildest dreams that everything in the parable was true. It does not matter what church we belong to on earth we need to know Jesus.
Part 8. Can a person carry out a normal conversation while being tortured in flames? Like he is doing in the story? Do you think you could be tortured with fire and still have a normal conversation? No. If taken literally would it make any sense? No it doesn’t. Bc Hell fire is not the main point. And death is not the main point. The point has not got to do with the state of the dead. It has to do with faithfulness it has to do with stewardship. It has to do with the gospel commission. So what we see here is Jesus is trying to straighten out some of the thinking of the jewish nation. They thought if you were a jew you had it half way to heaven. It’s automatic. If you were a gentile you were automatically lost. If you were rich that is a sign that God is favoring you. You must be righteous bc he is favoring you with riches. If you were the poor you must a sinner and God is cursing you to poverty. Jesus totally turns the tables on them. He has got the gentiles saved and the jews lost. The rich man lost the poor man saved. He is turning the tables on them. Right?? He was showing them that if you were jewish you didn’t have some automatic pathway to heaven.
Part 7. 4. Do souls have fingers, eyes, and tongues? When ppl talk about theology it is important to be consistent. When ppl say there is a really hell fire going on right now. They don’t say there’s body down there. They say there’s an immortal soul. Something without a body. Yet in the story you got a really person with body parts. He got a tongue he wants to cool. He has a finger. He has eyes. So no it is not consistent with the own theology of it all. 5. Now he asks for a drop of water would that really help. If this story was true and he said I want a drop of water would that really help? No. It’s not feasible that a drop of water would get there and help. It’s not realistic
Part 6.If the story is really true let’s talk about why the story can’t literal. 1.If everyone who died is righteous Abraham would have to have a pretty big possum That’s not were the righteous go. I don’t think Abraham would like that very much 2. Is only Lazarus going to reside there?? No. 3.Can ppl in Heaven an Hell really see each other and talk? How feasibly would it under the circumstances? You know firemen have to yell over the the roar of a flame. What about a chasm big enough to hold all the unsaved? Well they couldn’t hear or even have a conversation like in the story right hear. Would it really be pleasurable to be in heaven and look down and see ppl that were lost?? What if you knew those ppl?? A relative or a friend? There they were calling out to you? And wanting to have a conversation? And you see they are in agony. Would that be heaven?? No. It is no feasible under any circumstances. It’s just a symbolic story
Part 5. I am going to point out something to you. The word hell there is not Gahanna, a place of burning, it’s the word hades that means the grave. How do we know it is a parable?
It starts like a parable. Luke 16:19. “A certain rich man” Luke 12:16 He spoke a parable, “a certain rich man” Luke 13:6. He spoke also this parable, “a certain rich man had a fig tree” Luke 16:1. A certain rich man”(The parable of the unjust steward) Luke 19:11,12. A parable, a certain nobleman” Luke 20:9. This parable, “A certain rich man” Jesus started these parable with these expressions a certain man or a certain rich man. Outside of parables Jesus never used that expression. HE reserved it for parables.
Part 4“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”” Luke 16:19-31
Part 3.““There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
Part 2 So no it is an illustrative parable it is not a story that everything is literally true. It is an object lesson. So you don’t take Jotham’s story with the trees that talk and the brambles talking the fig tree talk and all that stuff literally? No, you have to let the story speak the moral lesson, but not every thing in the story is true.
Part 1. What about the rich man and lazars? It called the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. And once it is understood as a parable it takes away the confusion of it because even your scholars will emit that you don’t take parable literally. Parables are meant to teach moral principles, but not everything in a parable is literal. “And all the men of Shechem gathered together, all of Beth Milo, and they went and made Abimelech king beside the terebinth tree at the pillar that was in Shechem.” If you have a Bible with marginal readings it will say Jotham’s parable. “Now when they told Jotham, he went and stood on the top of Mount Geirzim, and lifted his voice and cried out. And he said to them: listen to me, you men of Shechem, that God may listen to you! The trees once went forth to anoint a king over them. And the said to the olive tree, reign over us!” So we got a story with trees talking. Do trees literally talk?? No. Do they really talk?? No. Do they talk in parables? Yes. But the olive tree said unto them, - Judges 9:9 And the trees said to the fig tree, - 9:10 But the fig trees said unto them, - 9:11 The said the trees unto the vine, - 9:12 And the vine said unto them, - 9:13 Then said all the trees unto the bramble,-14 And the bramble said unto the trees,-
okay, First let my get on my laptop….. it might take awhile… My brother is using it r n
But, yeah, let's move on to the rich man and Lazurus.
That was exactly what I told you I knew you would say, but you said that wasn't what you were going to say, and it actually was 🤔 And I said that that wouldn't make any sense for him to say that he was telling him today, bc that's just unnecessary. Plus, Jesus never used that expression anywhere else--"I tell you today"
there are other verses that have the same thing. they put the comma in the wrong spot. If you don’t agree that is okay…. Do you want to move onto Lazarus and the rich man?? or do you have questions?.
the verse with the correct punctuation should look like this “Assuredly, I say to you, today, you will be with be in Paradise ”
When the Bible was written it did not have punctuations. It did not have periods, commas, and exclamation marks ect.. So when the translator translated the Bible they had to add punctuation. So the verse with punctuation is “And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” Luke 23:43
Where is it in the Bible?? I can’t find it
Ok, let's first talk about that verse about what Jesus said on the cross.
gtg.. I will be right back in one minute
well let’s look at the verse
I know that one…. there is one thing……
Well then, what were you going to say?
Besides, there are many more verses I have to back up my belief. For example, the story of the rich man and Lazarus. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." (Luke 16:22-23)
no, that is actually not what I was going to say
I already know the whole run around with that verse you are talking about. You try to say that he was saying "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise", but tbh, that wouldn't make any sense if he had to say that he was telling him today, bc that's kind of obvious. It makes more sense that he would be telling him, "Today you will be with me in paradise"
Exactly, while we are at home in the body (alive), we are absent from the Lord, but as soon as we die, we go to be with Him.
Sorry, but I'm not interested in having a video call to debate...
what time zone are you in?
would you be up for a zoom call or something?? it is kinda hard doing like this….. we don’t have to….. I don’t know what time it is there, but if you want to that would make it easier….. I am open almost anytime of the day
I will give you a verse that you may not remember, but it backs up you beliefs if you don’t understand it… When Jesus was hanging on the cross he told the other person next to him that he would be in heaven. Do you remember that??
if you scroll down please see what I said to memorizer
If you look before that verse it says “So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight.” II Corinthians 5:6-7
Actually it does. When it says in 2 Cor 5:8, "AWAY from the body and at home with the Lord", that shows that there isn't soul sleep before the resurrection, because at the resurrection, the soul will be reunited with the body. Until then, the soul is away from the body and at home with the Lord in heaven. Also, when he says in Phil 1:23 that he desires to DEPART and be with Christ, he's showing that at death, the soul DEPARTS from the body, and goes to be with Christ.
that doesn’t say that you do to eaten IMMEDIATELY
...The ones that I just gave a little while ago (2 Cor. 5:8 and Phil. 2:3), as well as others. All you said to them was "okay".
Yes, I believe that when someone dies, they immediately go to heaven or hell, not soul sleep.
I believe that when someone dies they don’t go immediately to heaven or Hell.
What do you believe?? do you be that you instantly go to heaven or Hell?? I believe heaven is for the saved and he’ll is for ppl who are unsaved
When Jesus said they were sleeping, it was simply a figure of speech that he was using to show that for him, raising them from the dead was just as easy as waking a sleeping person. "His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead," (John 11:12-14)
We're debating about the state of the dead, which you believe is soul sleep, and which I believe is heaven for the righteous, and hell for the wicked.
wait…. are we debate whether you will go straight to heaven?? I am kinda confused…. what are we debating??
what did Jesus mean when he told Mary and Martha that lazarus was just sleeping??.. or when Jesus told the dead girl’s parents that she was still sleeping??
@Anonymousey, I can debate with you about soul sleep 😉 That verse that Memorizer gave is an excellent one that proves that a believer will go straight to heaven when they die (and not into soul sleep), bc Paul is saying that he prefers to be away from the body (to die) and to be at home with the Lord (in heaven).. He also says in Phil 1:23, "I desire to depart (from the body--die) and be with Christ which is better by far." Again, he's saying that when his soul departs from the body (which is what returns to the ground) his soul will go to be with Christ in heaven.
Yeah, but I don't have time to write out everything.
that does not show that you soul goes straight to heaven
that does not show your side
but I'm done for now. I don't really have time to explain everything, but this topic has been brought up before and went into depth if you want to check that out.
I accidentally went on to a different topic
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, King James Version.Revelation 3:10 KJV Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, King James Version.
I believe your soul goes straight to heaven when you die.
Some people believe your soul just sleeps when you die until the rapture.
We WERE talking about if you go straight to Heaven or hell when you die.
ummm... I'm not sure what we're talking about. I think we're on different pages, but if your debating whether Heaven is eternal... well it is it says eternal life. So I'm not sure where your going with this.
I said what I had to say….. what do you think?
Were you going to say something else?
This is a poignant, soul-baring moment from the apostle Paul. He is not suicidal, but he is honest about his deepest desires. He would rather be with the Lord than in his mortal, burdened, groaning, dying body. For the first time in this chapter, he describes being in his future, eternal body with Christ as being "at home." He is utterly convinced that it is where he is headed. Heaven is where he is meant to be forever. Paul's faith that the glory of his eternal life will far outweigh and outlast the suffering of earthly life makes him want that life more than this one. Of course it does. How could it not?
That same faith, though, gives him courage. Knowing his eternal fate is secure gives him fearlessness to keep going in this life. It emboldens Paul to stay on the path God has called him to. He is not actively seeking death; he is simply ready to go whenever God calls him home. Until then, he will keep working at what God has given him to do in the here and now.
Okay, if you don’t want to do what I ask then at least let us pray to ask God to send his Holy Spirit to guide us….
if you don't want to talk about this just tell me.😉
ummm... I don't really think this is relevant to the discussion...
I like to find common ground with ppl/get to know them…. Sooo why don’t I go first. I am Anonymousey. My favorite animal is dogs. my favorite color is orange. And my favorite food is pasta…. what is your favorite color, food, animal???
before I answer that question can I do something??
Now... what do you think?
Yes, but for hell its not if your bad, it's if your not save.😉
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, King James Version.
do you think you do to heaven immediately if you are good and hell immediately if you are bad
sorry for the confusion.😉
What do you think happens to your soul when you die?
You mean about the rapture, or what happens to your soul when you die?
I can change the topic… state of the dead….. Antichrist…..
If it's about the Sabbath, no, but if it's about something else, then possibly 😉😅
sorry Roger, but I now you will not want to do it
Memorizer, do you want to have a debate??
are you guys actually going to start a debate!!!! finally.😂😜
Roger can I ask you a question??
Alright, no problem! Tho when you get a chance, I'd still like to see your full response 😉
This isn’t my full response - I haven’t had time to write it so down. But a summary is that I’ve concluded one can lose their salvation if they inwardly reject Christ or if they kill themselves. That would mean I am close to but not really OSAS
Ok, np 😉 I have work, so I wouldn't even get around to responding until this weekend anyway 😅
I have several tests this week, I’ll have something by this weekend though
Lol, yes he did quite well
Roger I want to say Well done for standing up against “The Devil” 👍👏🏽 Well done 👏🏽
Thank, that is very helpful!
4. And obviously God is the only one who can justify us. We cannot justify ourselves. "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? IT IS GOD WHO JUSTIFIES." (Rom 8:33)
3. Jesus said: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last." (Jn 15:16) But obviously each of us has a freewill and we can decide to reject God's calling (Luke 7:30) And it does require something on our part to believe, repent, and confess our faith in Jesus. But we are NOT saved by our own righteousness, as I have already stated.
2. You are correct that adoption does only happen once and that a parent does not disown his child every time he screws up. This will actually answer your final question, but I'll say it now, cause it ties in. Now, I will admit that I could be wrong on this point, but this is the way I see it. Everyday, you or I or any believer will commit some sin, whether it be an outburst of anger, lying, complaining, etc. I DO NOT believe that that means one has lost his salvation. That is where grace comes in. The ideal would be for us to immediately repent when we realize we have offended the Lord, but I believe God gives us grace if we don't right away. Now, if one dies right at that moment, would he make it to Heaven in that state? Only God knows, He is the Judge, not I. That's why I think it's best for us to keep short accounts with God and not allow things to get swept under the rug and forgotten about. In the case of Peter disowning the Lord, I absolutely believe he would not have made it to Heaven in that state. 2 Tim 2:12b says: "If we disown him, he will also disown us." (Also see Mat 10:33) And if we deliberately keep on sinning and allow it to build up in our lives, eventually, little by little, we drift from the Lord and fall from our steadfastness. (2 Pt 3:17, Heb 10:26-27, 2 Pt 2:20)
What I said in my posts could answer your questions, but just so everything is clear, I will answer point by point 😉
1. Maybe for some, that idea could help, but I think for most, it gives them a license of sorts to say, "I'm not perfect, and I'm not aiming for perfection, but there's grace." (I actually know a Baptist who apparently thinks that way.) I believe it's a pillow to put ppl back to sleep when the Holy Spirit is convicting them; and I think it's slippery ice that allows one to stray further and further from God. We can be liberated to do good when we are saved and become slaves of righteousness (Rom 6:18, 22), without having to believe in OSAS. Peter puts it this way: "Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God." (1 Pt 2:16)
If you already answered these, and I just missed it in your response just refer me to the place so you don’t have to repeat everything again 🙃
Before I respond I have several questions (and yes I will be thorough in my response): 1. What do you think about the idea of OSAS liberating a person to do good (beginning of 1st post)? 2. What do you believe about the idea of an adoption happening once (end of 1st post)? What do you think about the idea that believing/choosing in Christ is not an act of our righteousness but an act of God alone (7th post at Romans 3:10-12 to 8th post)? What do you think of the idea that justification is an act of God alone (post 9)? Finally, just to clarify you believe that we are not saved from the moment we commit a sin until the time we repent of it, correct?
Now, I don't want a rushed answer from you. Please take the time, as I did for you and read carefully through my comments to fully absorb everything. Then state your rebuttal or answer 😉
And God says clearly in 2 Chron 7:14, "IF my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and TURN from their wicked ways, THEN WILL I hear from heaven and will FORGIVE their sin and will heal their land."
For, keep in mind, when Isaiah said, "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon", he was speaking to those who were once God's ppl but who had turned away.
You said--and I quote--"if a Christian does not repent of a [repeated] sin, at the very least I think they should question whether they believed at all." Maybe so, but don't you think they should rather say, "Have I believed in vain?" 1 Cor 15:2: "By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. OTHERWISE, YOU HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN." Or, "Am I standing firm in my faith?" (Is 7:9b) "If you do not stand firm in your faith, YOU WILL NOT STAND AT ALL." Or, "Do I have, 'a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God'? One that has been, 'hardened by sin's deceitfulness'? (Heb 3:12-13)
And Jesus said, "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But IF you DO NOT forgive men their sins, YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS." (Mat 6:14-15) What happens if God does not forgive our sins?
Now about your statement that we are not to live in condemnation and fear--again, you're absolutely correct! We are to live in freedom in the Lord! And do you also believe that because we love the Lord so much, we are to live to please the Lord? I'm sure you do. So, in that case, our obedience comes from love, not fear. (Jn 14:15) However, there actually is that healthy balance of the fear of the Lord in there as many verses in the Bible indicate including Phil 2:12b, which says, "continue to work out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING". When a child loves his father, he will do what he says, and when he does wrong, will he just go on as if nothing happened? No, he will go to his father and say, "I'm sorry, please forgive me", just as the prodigal son did. If he doesn't do that and says to himself, "My father knows I love him. He will overlook this wrong even if I don't apologize." Don't you think the father would be left wondering why his son did not take the time and show the remorse to repent? When we sin, we should feel the need to go to God and repent. If we don't, that shows a big problem on our part, not on God's. "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED that you CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO will be CUT OFF." (Rom 11:22)
Well, that verse says it pretty plainly. But also doesn't Jesus address this when he says: "Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have FALLEN! REPENT and do the things you did at first. IF YOU DO NOT REPENT, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." (Rev 2:4-5) And in chapter 3:15-17: "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are LUKEWARM–neither hot nor cold–I AM ABOUT TO SPIT YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." Later on in verse 19, He pleads with them to "be earnest and REPENT".
So, in light of all I just said: What happens to a carnal Christian who doesn't repent?
Coincidentally, my Bible reading today included these verses, "It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SINS, AS WE HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU AND WARNED YOU. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit." (1 Thess 4:3-8)
Back to my point that God will not let carnality into Heaven, Revelation clearly states that we must wash our robes if we are to be allowed to enter. “Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (Rev 22:14-15)
But moving on from that, I'd like to briefly address what you said about "some carnal Christians" using grace as a license for sin. You are absolutely correct! I actually believe that a great number who believe in OSAS do. That begs the question: will God allow anything carnal to enter His kingdom? I think not! Revelation 21:27 says: "NOTHING impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." Please don't say that everyone who has ever said the sinner's prayer or at one point was saved still has his name in the Book of Life. If you think so, take a look at these verses where Jesus is rebuking the church in Sardis: "Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY it, and REPENT. BUT IF YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a FEW people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who OVERCOMES will, like them, be dressed in white. I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." (Rev 3:2-5) Notice this promise comes only to those who overcome, which obviously means that there will be those who don't, and it is very possible for someone's name to be blotted out of the book of life.
Alright, whew, I can get my thoughts in order now😌 I'm back, and I have read thru your posts more thoroughly. Now I see exactly what you are saying. I want to absolutely make it clear that I am by no means saying that we are saved by our own righteousness. I was only using those verses to point out what the parallel is today.
Anonymousey, well, we're already having a debate right now, so maybe we can save that discussion for later 😅😉
what do u think about the anti-christ?
Will, that's quite a bit for me to read thru, especially when I have a lot going on already. So I didn't read every detail, but I get your point. I absolutely agree that we are not saved by our own righteousness and it's only through God's grace, but you also have to balance it out with other Scripture as well. There is SO MUCH I could and want to say, but I'm a bit weary right now, and my brain doesn't want to think 😅 So, allow me some time, and then maybe I can collect my thoughts and give you a clear answer as opposed to a bunch of garble 😂
After God did all that for us, what did we do?
Since the righteousness came from God, we are not trusting in our past righteousness to save us, but God’s work of righteousness. The act of justification, then, is also entirely the work of God. “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those HE predestined, HE also called; those HE called, HE also justified; those HE justified, HE also glorified.”
Also, consider these verses about God doing the work of salvation. Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; Acts 13:48; Acts 16:14
31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give
repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God
has granted repentance that leads to life.”
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and
glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a
worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to
what was said by Paul.
2. OSAS do not trust in their past, present, or future righteousness to do anything for them at all, let alone save them from sins. Most OSAS, including me, believe in the doctrine of Total Depravity, which is the idea that we are at our core perverted and evil (ie fallen), this evil nullifies any good that we do. Isaiah 64:6 - “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” Romans 3:10-12 also explains that no one seeks after God, “As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” - Since we do not seek God naturally, it is the next conclusion that God enables us to seek him and to put our faith in Him. It is not a work that we do, but an act of God. It was not by our righteousness that we had faith, but through God’s righteous enablement. Ephesians 2: 8-10 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” - We are saved for good works, not by good works. And these works were prepared by God, not us.
I’ll get to my second point in a bit. I have to leave for a while
Some carnal Christian do use OSAS as an excuse to do evil. But Paul answers the question when he says, “What shall we say than? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!” Romans 6:1-2, notice the sinning would cause grace to increase, though we are told by Paul not to do this on purpose. Also, it does not make sense for Paul to address whether people should keep sinning, if they would be condemned to hell for their sin because then it would be obvious why they shouldn’t keep sinning. The next part of that passage shows that the grace is there so that we may live free from sin through Christ. Romans 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.”
2 Corinthians 3:4-6, 4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Hebrews 2:14-15, "14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."
Romans 8:15 - “For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba!” Father!”
@Vera, two things, 1. It seems like you believe that OSAS is an excuse to do evil. It isn’t. Instead, it liberates us to persevere in doing good without the fear of being in condemnation over and over again. When people live in fear and shame and guilt, each fall is harder to get up from. But when failure is not such a big deal, people can get up again and start over easily. I know how this goes having lived a good portion of my life with intense guilt and shame over the tiniest infractions. But God did not give us a Spirit of Fear, but a spirit of adoption. Adoption happens once, otherwise it is not an adoption. Imagine disowning your adopted child every time they screwed up? That’s cruel, not parental. Abusive, not instructive.
It's quite a plain verse to me 😄
It's the same as when a wicked man turns from his sins; he will not go to hell for the sins he's repented of
Will, the point of that verse (Ez 33:12-13) is this: if God tells a righteous man (i.e. someone made righteous by Jesus' death on the cross) that he will SURELY LIVE, but then that man trusts in his righteousness (i.e. OSAS; see Jer 7:3-11) and does evil, he will not be allowed into Heaven just bc he at one time professed faith and was made righteous
That sounds convincing to me
So, for me, this says it pretty plainly. I don't know how much more direct it can get: "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17) So, only Christians are God's temple. So if a Christian destroys God's temple (themself), God will destroy them. Obviously, they won't be making it into heaven.
I’m actually not sure. Some people’s mental problems physically prevent them from experiencing happiness. But if they don’t have a mental problem the act shows a lack of transformation. what verses you got?
Oh, well yes suicide would not be repeatable 🙃
Well except suicide 😅 And btw, do you believe that a Christian who commits suicide will go to hell? I do, and I have down-right proof of it in the Word.
I meant a repeated sin, all sins are repeatable
@Roger if a Christian does not repent of a repeatable sin, at the very least I think they should question whether they believed at all. Because when we are transformed at the moment of salvation, our lives should reflect this transformation or else their is no evidence of a transforming faith. It is possible they have fallen away from their relationship with God, though they are still his child, in which Christ would intercede for them but they would not have a healthy father/son relationship with the father: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15 - the carnal Christian might be saved, but they’ll be saved barely
@Vera, I’m not one hundred percent sure what your point is. I haven’t made any argument that works of righteousness save a person. We are saved by grace and not by works. I don’t trust in my previous righteousness to intercede for me when I sin, I trust Christ to intercede as said in Hebrews 7:25. My righteousness has nothing to do with justifying me, but Christ’s sacrifice has justified me through His righteousness. “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,” Philippians 3:8-9
Ez 33:12-13: “Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. THE RIGHTEOUS MAN, IF HE SINS, WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO LIVE BECAUSE OF HIS FORMER RIGHTEOUSNESS.’ IF I TELL THE RIGHTEOUS MAN THAT HE WILL SURELY LIVE, BUT THEN HE TRUSTS IN HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND DOES EVIL, NONE OF THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS HE HAS DONE WILL BE REMEMBERED; HE WILL DIE FOR THE EVIL HE HAS DONE."
I'd like to just add this one piece of food for thought into the mix, but I'm not gonna say much cuz I'm really short on time. I think these verses really bring everything together very concisely. And plz don't give the excuse that it's from the OT, bc isn't the second half of the verse still applicable? I'm sorry, but you can't pick and chose
But if a Christian continues in sin and doesn't repent at all, it is definitely possible for them to fall away and end up in hell. Do you agree with that?
In summary, when we sin against our Father, he is displeased with us and he may punish us temporally (Hebrews 12:6) - discipline doesn’t mean permanent punishment, it’s a punishment to show our error. When we sin, Christ intercedes so our salvation is not lost. Then we confess to restore our relationship with our Father whom we displeased, though at no point did we stop being his child.
Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” - we are saved by Christ intercession, and we are saved forever.
1 John 2:1-2 “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” - Notice Christ intercedes when we sin, he is the satisfaction of God’s wrath (the propitiation), our advocate when we sin
Here are a few more verses for when you get back: Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, - It says Jesus makes us blameless
For a full look at what I believe I recommend “The Grace Awakening,” by Charles R. Swindoll
Thank you! I will read your articles
My second argument is freedom and confidence in Christ. How can we be free in Christ if we are losing our salvation all the time? We would have to repent constantly lest we sin unintentionally and then not be saved.
Ok, listen, for a full look at what I believe on this matter, I want you to please read these two articles: https://tinyurl.com/35b9vk88, https://tinyurl.com/2p86h8zv
See also that our hope in Him purifies us
“See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.” 1 John 3:1-3
John 1:12 - “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
When you sin against your father, you don’t stop being his child. But you ask forgivenessask forgiveness to restore the relationship - not forgiveness to restore salvation
“For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.” Hebrews 7:26-27. the sacrificial system has repeated sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, while Christ only had to die once. repeated repentance for our salvation would be like offering repeated sacrifices, but confessing once Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9) is acknowledging one sacrifice for all our sins
The distinction I make is between our condition and our position. Positional we are God’s child, conditionally we may be in sin and displeasing our father.
The key term from all your verses is “fall away.” The debate is what does this term mean?
1. When a Christian sins, they should repent. They were still God’s child, though they displeased their father who give them a temporal punishment for their sin rather than an eternal punishment. Imagine a father who denies their child every time they screw up. 2. The Lord’s Prayer has a part for forgiveness because although we are permanently God’s child, we can still displease God and be disciplined temporally. 3. this question will take another post because I will have to use scripture
I answered your question, now I have some questions for you. If you don't answer these, I will not be continuing this discussion. #1: What is a Christian supposed to do when they sin? #2: Why does it have a prayer for forgiveness in the Lord's prayer, a prayer that Christians pray? #3: What do you say to EVERY SINGLE ONE of the verses that I gave that fly in the face of the OSAS false doctrine?
Jesus I know, but who are you?
It is good for you to reject this statement: If you sin against your father you are still your father’s child, but you still ask for forgiveness even though your position with him did not change.
The Lord rebuke you Satan, in Jesus' name! You are being a mouthpiece for the devil.
You can’t know you are going to heaven, because at this moment you could unintentionally sin and suddenly die without having repented
How can you live free, if you are constantly becoming unsaved?
Surely you must repeat Wesley’s prayer on repeat every second of the day, lest you sin without realizing it and be unsaved for a moment. Is that eternal risk with taking? if not you surely must pray for forgiveness so often you can do nothing else with your life. Your sin is your focus lest you be unsaved
John Wesley’s plea is torture to my ears! OSAS would appreciate that prayer because it covers sins not remembered. The only difference is OSAS say this to cover all the sins. Perhaps I can sow one more seed of fear from your beliefs.
Rev 3:3: "Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
2 Pet. 2:20: "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."
Jas 5:19-20: "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
Verses 14 and 15: "But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."
More Scriptures: "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God." (Heb 3:12)
The Lord's prayer itself includes a prayer for forgiveness: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
When you repent of your sins, you repent specifically for the ones you remember, and also for the ones you are not aware of, or have forgotten. I like this prayer by John Wesley called "A Plea for Forgiveness": "Forgive them all, O Lord: our sins of omission and our sins of commission; the sins of our youth and the sins of our riper years; the sins of our souls and the sins of our bodies; our secret and our more open sins; our sins of ignorance and surprise,…..and our more deliberate and presumptuous sins; the sins we have done to please others; the sins we know and remember,…..and the sins we have forgotten;
the sins we have striven to hide from others….and the sins by which we have made others offend; forgive them, O Lord, forgive them all for his sake, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, and now stands at thy right hand to make intercession for us, Jesus Christ our Lord."
I love people who don’t listen
Heb 2:1: "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away."
You have not answered my question. how do you remember all your sins?
2 Tim 2:12: "if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;"
1Tim 6:10: "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."
You haven't given any Scripture except Rom 10:9. You have to look at the WHOLE Bible, not just one verse.
1 Tim. 4:1: "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
I have read all of these before, I quote scripture all the time just like you 😉
1 Cor. 10:12: "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"
it’s like I said, you sin so often, how do you keep track of them all? you must rarely be in a state of “being saved”
John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Romans 11:22: "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who FELL, but kindness to you, PROVIDED that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF."
I love when you say, “Now whenever we sin, we need to repent right away, be if we die at any point with un-repented-of sin in our lives, then we will end up in hell. But when we sin, God gives us grace, in the form of time to repent.” You sin so often that you are rarely in a state of “being saved.” You must be careful not to die at the wrong time! And keep good notes of all your wrongs, lest you forget one and accidentally let it go unrepented.
Tell me, do you remember all your sins? I think you sin a lot more than you think you do! But I’m glad that though you were made alive, you still think you can die again. I like how the knew creatures think they become old again. Why would Paul ask, “should we keep on sinning so grace may increase?” if you had to work, than this would not be a concern. I’m glad you work for your faith to be sustained, just ignore Romans 10:9 because their is so much more you have to do to stay saved! I would also not recommend asking yourself whether loving God for his free gift is motivating enough to not sin in order to please the one who saved you. If you sin it pleases me, not God, doesn’t matter whether you lose your salvation or not
And those two verses are just scratching the surface when it comes to the loads of proof from the Scriptures that backsliding is definitely possible and real.
2 Peter 3:17: "Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and FALL from your secure position." He's telling them that it's possible to fall from their secure position. And this verse is very key, bc a lot ppl believe in ETERNAL security (Once Saved Always Saved), but that is a completely false heresy. This verse points out that as a Christian there IS SECURITY. We don't have to go around in fear of falling away, bc as long as we stay close to the Lord, walk in His ways, and repent when we sin, we are safe and secure. However, it does NOT say that the security is eternal, BECAUSE he told them it was possible that they could FALL from that secure position if they were not on their guard. The Greek word for "fall" that is used in this verse means "to drop away; specifically be driven out of one’s course; figuratively to lose, become inefficient: - be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect."
Revelation 2:5 as just one example: "Remember the height from which you have fallen! REPENT and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." He's talking to the church, Christians! And what is he telling them to do? To REPENT. He's telling them that they've fallen from a height, and to do the things they did AT FIRST, which proves that they were once walking in right standing with the Lord, but then fell away. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't be telling them to return to those things they did at first.
No, that's wrong. If you just tell everyone that they don't have to repent of their sins, then you are basically just giving them a free pass to sin. After all, they'll just think "Hey, if I sin, no biggy, bc it's all been forgiven". But the Bible clearly says that grace is NOT a license to sin. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that all your future sins are forgiven automatically. Yes, Jesus died for all our sins, but the only way we can accept and receive the forgiveness is to repent, which means turning from our sins. In 1 John 1:9, it says "IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just, and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Notice the condition to being forgiven. It's not automatic. And repentance is not works. Jesus preached repentance a lot, so was Jesus preaching works? Of course not. We are saved by grace through faith, yes. But repentance is vital to maintaining your relationship with the Lord. If you let sin build up in your life and just go on in it, then you've fallen away. The Bible gives MANY verses that show this clearly.
I really love the idea that if you fall away by sinning enough times then your not saved anymore. Most Christians are sinning constantly in thought, deed, and omission. So many sins they can’t come close keeping up to confess them all! Besides, I can’t have them thinking their sins past, present, and future have been paid for and forgiven once and for all, that would be a disaster you know. I just can’t let them be free like that. The more fear of falling away the harder the fall, you know. I can’t let them think being saved by grace through faith results in works naturally by their transformation into new creations! Christians should believe grace must be sustained by their works or they won’t be saved. The terror of falling away must be upon them. Then legalism has a room take root. And once they realize they can’t ever be perfect enough to sustain grace just as they were not perfect enough to earn grace, they’ll give up and leave the faith in despair.
Curious what y’all’s thoughts are: is it possible to live in a spirit of repentance so that if you sin, your spirit of repentance will make up for a lack of memory or a death before consciously repenting of the sin?
Yeah, if you would change your username from Anonymousey to something else, I would be able to see for sure if you really are the same person or not.
But that doesn't convince us at all. Why don't you change your name on the other account? It's very simple. If you're not the other Anonymousey, and you want us to know that without a doubt, why don't you prove it?
I did change my name at least the one I am using right now
No, I'm not confusing you with a different person. If you look back on the Bible Brigade to February 2 and 3, you'll see that you were debating with me about the Sabbath. I already told you on The Bible Brigade how I know you're the same person, and you never proved that you AREN'T by changing your username or pfp on the account you are using right now.
we did, when? I think you are confusing me with a different person!
I already debated with you about the Sabbath, and I do not wish to have another one about it
does anyone want to debate me?
I understand that it takes almost a year (over 200 days) to get all the effects of covid out of our systems. I am experiencing some hair loss and went to a doctor yesterday. She said she's getting all kinds of patients who are losing their hair because of covid. But she says that eventually it will start growing in again.
Yeah, my whole family got it back in June. But we all recovered, thank God 😊 For most of us, it wasn't that severe actually. The main thing was the loss of taste and smell, which also took the longest to recover from.
@Roger: Did you have covid as well?
However, there are still some groups that are relatively active (Agape Force, The Bible Brigade, and Memorize Gods Word)
Hey, Marilyn! Glad to hear that you've recovered fully! 😀 I'm doing well, too. (This group has been pretty dead for a while, tho 😂)
I'm good as well. My health is back to normal. I got covid in September and struggled with it for almost 2 months. Finally knocked it out. It's good to be feeling better. I can now emphathize with those who have emphesema, because that is what it felt like.
👋 hi! speaking for myself, I’m good! how about you?
Hi everybody! Just dropping in to say hello. How are things going with you all? 😃🤚❤
I kinda agree with both ME and and Vera 😅 One verse that comes to mind is in 1 Cor. 13, where Paul says that "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." Ofc, Paul wasn't talking specifically about sin in that context, but I think it still applies. We're made completely perfect (including from sin), when we go to be with the Lord. Bc it also says in Rom. 6:7 that "anyone who has died has been freed from sin." I believe that applies in the literal sense of dying, and also when we spiritually die to sin. Just some thoughts...
Yeah, I don't personally don't know anyone like that either... but anyway, I don't claim to be an expert on that one 😅
I’m with ME on this one. I think it’s definitely something we should strive for but I don’t think it’s possible on this broken earth… And I personally have never heard of anyone who just stopped spinning at some point 🤷♀️
You can call this coincidence, but I call it confirmation. I had just finished posting this comment, and beforehand, I had looked at the verse, "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.” (1Jn 5:18). But I hadn't posted it in my comment. However, right afterward, I started reviewing my verses, and one of the first five or six verses was 1 Jn 5:18.
Well, three things I do know for sure, 1: We need to aim for perfection (2 Corinthians 13:11) 2: "If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.” (James 3:2) And 3: Paul said himself that even he had not become perfect yet (Phil 3:12) So, whether we attain perfection in this present life or in the life to come, we must, through the help of the Holy Spirit, aim for perfection. Jesus even told several different people during His earthly ministry that they needed to stop sinning (Jn 5:14, 8:11)
ME
Wednesday, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:03 AM
remove
I think it's something that we strive for in this world but we don't perfectly attain til we see Jesus face to face and are perfected in His image.
Well, l let's just say, I personally haven't attained perfection yet 😅... However, I DO believe that it must be possible, because, first of all, with God, all things are possible. Two, Jesus said, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) And, 1 Peter 1:16 says, "Be holy, for I am holy." So God would not command us to do something that we cannot do. What is your take on it?
Is it possible to live out the rest of your life perfectly at some point?
😂 Charis, do you have any other topics? It seems like no one else is too interested in debating (again) on this one 😅
...the silence on this group these days is deafening 😂
If they are truly saved, it will be shown by what they do. Repentance--turning away (from sin)--is a key to being born again
They Bible says that no idolater will inherit the kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:10
If they are not walking in obedience to the Lord, if they are committing idolatry, and if they are trying to get to the Father thru other ways than just Jesus, they cannot be a true believer
But what makes them not saved?
I figured we had but I couldn’t remember what exactly was said
😅...we've actually already done this one before...whoops 😬😂 But, in essence, no, they aren't true Christians.
Are catholics saved??
(another topic)
Yeah, that’s my main problem with them. They don’t seem very concerned about the quality of the disciples when I think that should be the main focus
Also, I agree that focusing too much on the number is not the best, either. The main focus should be on the quality of disciples they're producing.
And one can also not be a true disciple unless they are being fed the Word. That is why the core of our school is to get ppl into Life Transformation Groups (LTGs), where, among other things, they read lots of the Bible. I don't think it is wrong for them to get answers from the one discipling them. However, I do think it is a really good idea for them to try to get things from the Word themselves, as well.
Well, one cannot be a disciple unless he is saved, so that I don't agree with...Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching you are really my disciples..." So, you must be born again and holding to His teachings in order to be a true disciple, otherwise the discipleship won't do you one lick of good.
From what I've heard they believe that you can be a disciple without being a believer... They seem to focus on making disciples and kinda leaving it to them to maybe become saved later on (one of the approaches at least). And that missionaries aren't supposed to teach people the word or give them answers?? Also, the movement itself seems to focus too much on the number of people they disciple which I don't like.
Yes, make disciples that will multiply. What is your take on it?
so, y’all agree with their technique?
I hadn't exactly heard of that acronym before, but I just now looked it up, and Roger and I are actually very well acquainted with the concept. 😅 That's what our family went to Hungary to accomplish, that's what we are now aiming for with our DTS, and that's what Jesus commanded us to do in the Great Commission 😄
Well, I believe that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. So, if anyone is ready to accept God as the Lord and Savior of his life, God will more than gladly accept him 😊 However, if God calls someone, but they don't chose to follow, they won't be chosen by God. God gives the invitation--it's our job to accept it.
The people that aren’t chosen can still choose God
What I mean is God chooses few people but that doesn’t mean that the people that aren’t chosen can’t choose God if that makes sense
Yes, I believe so. As it says in 2 Pet. 1:10, "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF you do these things, YOU WILL NEVER FALL," So, it says that IF we do the things that it said in the context we must do, that will ensure that we will never fall, and will make our calling and election sure.
So, the elect are just people who become a Christian? And they can still leave the faith?
"Few are chosen" as in, some ppl reject the calling, and thus are not chosen. And some ppl can accept that calling, but they don't follow thru with their commitment (Matthew 21:28–32). Also see Matthew 22:1-14 (the parable explains it all)
Everyone is called to believe in God, few are chosen. Doesn’t this mean that few people choose to?
*scratches head* Sethers, I'm not really sure what your point is... do you mind wording that a bit differently, please? 😅 Are you saying that even if we aren't chosen by God, but we choose God, that we'll still go to heaven? I'm sorry, I'm just a bit confused here 😂
But about this, so the Bible says “many are called few are chosen”, so let’s think about this, lots of people are going to be called, few are going to be chosen by God, this does not mean that we cannot choose God, it simply means that God won’t choose a lot of people, God will choose few people but we can choose God
I’ve been busy soo haven’t had the time to say anything
sorry, this isn't a very detailed write-up, cause I need to do some things before work...
Well, as 2 Pt 1:10 says, we must "make our calling and election sure", and "many are called, but few are chosen". (Matt 22:14) So, I'm not sure how many of the ppl who don't make it to heaven are elect...
ok, this wasn’t where I was originally going but here goes… So, the people who are elected are the ones who go to heaven, yes? Do they all go to heaven?
okay, since no one else is saying anything, just let me remember where exactly I was going with this…..
And we cannot forget that God has given man a free will. He did not create a bunch of robots that do exactly what has been programmed into them. It is certainly possible to drift away and shrink back. This means we must put our faith in Jesus, we must MAKE OUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE (2 Pet. 1:10), we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12)
So, I believe that election is based on God’s gracious choice. (Rom 11:5-7) The elect were known beforehand and destined beforehand, which is called predestination. (Rom 8:29-30) God’s purpose in choosing the elect was that they go and bear fruit that would remain, that the Father would give them whatever they ask in Jesus’ Name, that the elect be conformed to the image of His Son, and to make his glory known upon the vessels of His mercy. Obviously, God does not want any to perish, Jesus is the Savior to all who believe, and the gospel is for everyone who will listen. But while many are called, few are chosen. (Mat 22:14)
Ok, I'll restate what I had said a while back 😉
Well, if we could give brief statements about our beliefs on that I can introduce another topic
Hmm...a while back, I give a brief statement about my belief on that...um, it kinda turned into a political discussion somehow 🤔😂
idk if we’ve discussed that yet
Do we believe in predestination here?
...soooo, Agent, what's the next topic? 😂
This next one is explicit: "Remember the height from which you have FALLEN! Repent and DO THE THINGS YOU DID AT FIRST. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." (Revelation 2:5) As you can see, the ppl in this church (in Ephesus) had fallen away from the Lord. It is clear that they had once been truly saved and following the Lord, bc Jesus tells them to DO THE THINGS THEY DID AT FIRST. If they hadn't been on the right path beforehand, he would not be telling them to go back to that. They had FALLEN from a height, and they needed to repent.
It's possible for them to have at once been saved and preached the truth, but then they become apostate and false teachers. Besides, as I said, I have plenty more verses to show you that prove that a true believer can fall away.
I explained everything in my post earlier
No, how can false teachers be saved?
Well, even if it is about false prophets, it is still showing that they were once truly saved: they had "escaped the corruption in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." But as the commentary you gave said, "they have chosen to GO BACK to sin and indulge in it." As the verse says, they "are again entangled in it and overcome". That means that they fell away/lost their salvation. As it also says about them in 2 Pet, "They have LEFT the straight way and WANDERED OFF to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness." They were on the straight and narrow path, following the Lord, but the turned away from Him and became apostate. That's losing your salvation.
The chapter here is talking about false prophets
2 Peter 2:20 (FSB): last state has become worse for them Jesus has offered these people the opportunity to escape sin—which came at the price of His own life—and they have chosen to go back to sin and indulge in it, and then encouraged others to do the same. Having known the truth and denied it, their current spiritual situation is worse than before: Evil has gained a stronger footing in their lives because it is now using them to lead others astray (compare Luke 11:24–26). In addition, these false teachers will experience an especially harsh judgment from God; they will not only bear their own punishment, but also the punishment for those they led astray (Luke 17:1–2). The full consequences of their sin will visit them. In full knowledge of the truth, the false teachers chose this path instead of the freedom of Christ.
If you want verses about losing your salvation, I can give you PLENTY. For starters, there's 2 Pet. 2:20, "If they have escaped the corruption in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning." This is clearly saying that if a true believer falls away/loses his salvation, by again becoming entangled in the world/sin and overcome by it, he is worse off than an unbeliever, who has never been saved before!
That isn't even what you asked for, really. You asked for verses that backed up what I had been saying. So I gave you all the verses that I had cited in my comments (and some that Vera had given). As I said, if you want to see those verses in the context of my points, then go back and reread Vera's and my comments.
Those verses say nothing about losing your salvation😂🤦🏻♂️
Yes, exactly! When I read the Bible, I don't see it any other way. I would not want to tell someone that he can get into heaven with sin in his life
Sethers, I've already given you verses. You, on the other hand, have not given me a single verse that backs up your point, or even told me how you think it works. We gave you 1 Cor. 3:16-17 (about suicide), Mat 5:48, Eph 4:26-27, Heb 12:14, and 1 Jn 1:9 (about the conditional forgiveness). If you want to see these verses in the context of my points, then go back and reread my comments.
Show me verses to back up your opinions
😆 Sounds just like the way Micah is tickled pink whenever I say "I know" something, and then I'm wrong 😂
“Yah, I have a bad memory.” Made my day 😂 not entirely sure why
As I said, we can only be forgiven if we repent; so if someone dies and has not repented of one or more sins, then I don't believe they will make it to heaven. I do not see how it could biblically work any other way, as I already showed in my previous comments.
I just don’t think that if you believe in Jesus and sin, you will not live eternally. you need to repent, but if a sin leads to your death and you believed in Jesus and repented of your sin, you will be eternally dead?
Yah, I have a bad memory.
Micah, yes, we already had a debate about that, and you agreed with me, remember?
so you believe you can lose your salvation?
I believe that God does give people time to repent--that's what the grace is there for--but that doesn't mean that the person will always repent when the Holy Spirit prompts them to. If they don't repent, they will not be forgiven. There isn't a single verse in the Bible that says we are forgiven of our sins automatically as soon as it happens, whether we repent or not. On the contrary, 1 Jn 1:9 says, "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Notice the "if" in there. It's a conditional thing. Obviously, if we confess our sins to Him, we have to stop doing them/turn away from them, which is repentance.
idrk, it’s a complicated question ig….. I mean, you would assume God would give you time to repent, but also, people have probably gone to hell because they didn’t repent of a sin and that’s the most frustrating part of this whole situation. I’m not entirely sure what I think about this..
I didn't say that RIGHT as you're about to start repenting, God's going to kill you and send you to hell. That's not how God operates. He gives us grace so that we will have time to repent. So, no, that's not biblical what you just said, and that's not what I said either.
That’s definitely not biblical
That’s part of your guys losing your salvation thing🤦🏻♂️so from what I’m hearing you guys say, if you sinned and right as you were about to confess it you fall dead, you go to hell
*Finishing that one sentence in there*: I would not want to tell anyone that they can still get into heaven, even if they have just one or a few sins that they have not repented of. Bc if someone takes that advice, and takes risks and chances with that, letting sins slide for a while, and they end up in hell bc I told them it was ok, I would be to blame for that happening. That's why the safest and best thing to do is to 1: With God's help, avoid the sin in the first place and 2. If we do sin, repent of it right away and make sure we don't forget it and just sweep it under the rug.
Now, let's pretend that it was the way you suggested, where if it's just ONE sin, he'll still allow you into heaven. Well, there are some problems with that. Number one, things could start becoming very subjective. One could say, "Well, if he could allow one sin to slide, then why not two?" Or someone could use that as an excuse to hold onto their sin for a little longer, thinking "Well, if I die like this, it's only one sin, so God will still let me into heaven." And then they could just let more sin build up, bc they hang onto it and end up forgetting to repent of it. That would be very dangerous. God doesn't just "let our sins slide". I would not want to tell anyone that they can still get into heaven, even if they have just one or a few sins that they have not repented of. Now, also, we've already proven from 1 Cor. 3:16-17 that if a Christian commits suicide, they will not make it. Now, if someone who commits suicide, and obviously cannot repent of it, will go to hell, than why wouldn't that be the case with any other sin? After all, there is no such thing as a "small sin". All sin is big in God's sight. So, none of it can be allowed into heaven. Remember, he's still the same holy God that he was back under the old covenant. That factor didn't change. It says in Heb 12:14 says, "without holiness, NO ONE will see the Lord." Holiness does not include any sin.
Well, God is also a holy God, and he cannot allow any sin into heaven. As it says in Romans, His grace is not a license to sin. In other words, His grace isn't there to justify our sin as soon as it happens, making it so that we're automatically forgiven whether we repent or not. His grace is there to give us time to repent. His grace is also there for when we repent. He doesn't just say, "You know what? You've sinned so much that, even tho you've repented, I'm not going to forgive you anymore." But bc of his grace, he will continue to forgive us IF we repent, which doesn't just mean saying you're sorry--repentance means TURNING AWAY from your sin. Ofc you will be sorry for your sin, but you also have to turn away from it, and not continue in it.
I personally can’t believe that God, a God of mercy, love, and grace would actually let someone who has trusted in Him to go to hell because they didn’t have a chance to repent one sin.
"'In your anger do not sin': Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold." (Eph 4:26-27) Why is there this verse in the Bible?
Well, what do you think happens?
So wait, if you live your life believing in Jesus, repenting when you do wrong, and make a mistake that costs you your life, you are condemned? That doesn’t seem right.
Charis, I'm curious, what is your take on all this? 😊
I agree with Roger. That is why, with the Lord's help, we must live each day as if it were our last, which I'll be the first to admit, I don't do. Jesus did tell us, "Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." (Mat 5:48) So the best remedy is to avoid the sin in the first place. But when we sin, it's always a good practice to repent right away and not leave something to get swept under the rug and forgotten about.
So, say you were driving and getting frustrated and angry with the person in front of you and then another car hit you and you were dead. You wouldn’t go to heaven?
Yes. Also, I definitely agree with Vera about the suicide. The Bible clearly says, "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? IF ANYONE DESTROYS GOD'S TEMPLE, GOD WILL DESTROY HIM; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple." (1 Cor. 3:16-17, emphasis added)
do you also believe that if a Christian sinned and shortly after died before they repented, would go to hell?
No. Bc suicide is murder. Nobody (not even a Christian) can get into heaven if they murder someone (including their own self) unless they repent, which you can't if you commit suicide. So no. And it is EXTREMELY dangerous for pastors and others to say that, "Yes, you will still go to heaven, but God just won't be happy with you for a while." 😑 That gives one a way out, and it has led to many Christians doing just that--taking their own lives--when God alone is the giver and taker of life.
anyways, if a Christian committed suicide would they go to heaven?
ok, here’s one which was not one of the ones that I was kinda thinking of but couldn’t remember 😏
😂😂 Ok, let me know when you do remember them
ooh, I have a lot. Just… let me remember them…
I don't know if there are any topics left to debate about 😆
Wow, you sound bored 😂 Micah, we're having a new activity over on The Bible Brigade, if you want to go join 😉
Speaking of Micah, he's been sooo inactive lately 😒
Um, no it wasn't Micah, I know that 😂 Micah would have said it on his own account and his writing would have been very....different 😅
Maybe Micah, although I don’t think he would talk about liberals like that
Ok, wow, I really thought that was you 😅 But, yeah, whoever it was, all they did with their account was to join Final Events...so that's why I thought you had created an alt account. 😂 Plus, the way they talked/wrote really seemed like the way you do it.
We are not the same account, just very similar beliefs.
Hahaha no. I had no idea whose account that is, but I agree, tho.
So, Bubble, alt account on Final Events SDA, huh? 😏
🤔 Did you read my other comments?
Yes, but this verse says explicitly that the plagues are death, mourning, and famine, not the great tribulation. Not only that, but it had just shown that this is after the great tribulation, not before. Revelation 18:1 (KJV 1900): "And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory." Notice how it says AND AFTER THESE THINGS. this verse explicitly shows that this happens AFTER the Great Tribulation, not before
Also, it just so happens that in 2 Cor 6:17, there is a similar call to: “Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” That doesn't mean leave the earth; it simply means you are to make a separation from the world.
He's not telling ppl to come out of the earth. I think what that verse is saying is that we as Christians are supposed to come out of Babylon, as in be separate from her. We are not to share in her sins or else we will receive her plagues. (Notice at this point in the chapter, he implies there are still plagues coming.) You could also take it literally and say, "leave America; go to another country". But I don't at all see the rapture happening in that passage. And I still absolutely believe that those ppl were
in heaven, bc the sea of glass is in heaven. And they are holding harps that God has given them in Heaven. I really don't see anything completely symbolic in this chapter. It all seems literal to me.
So how can the Bible be saying right after the Great Tribulation for the people of God to come out of earth if they are already in heaven?
Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
ok so I did some more digging and it never even says that they are in heaven. The people of God stand on a sea of glass, but this entire chapter is representative. The sea of glass represents their purity. Mingled with fire, the justice of God. Now we look at Rev 18 and see that RIGHT AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION the angel goes and calls his people from the earth.
😂 Ok, everybody, we're taking a ten year recess for Micah to read Revelation 15 and 16. 🤣 Um, yah, Micah, plz don't take that long 😅
9 years and 364 days later……
And maybe try to do it sometime before ten years is up 😂😜
Well, lemme know when you've done that, and we'll continue the discussion 😉
It is, but I need to put some time away to read it.
I can't imagine not having read Revelation for a while; it's such an interesting book! 😄
I second your first statement 😅 😉 Maybe tonight? Chapters 15 and 16 aren't that long
I really need to reread this for context. It’s also always good to quiz someone on the Bible. We almost always miss or relearn something we haven’t seen or remembered before.
"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath ON THE EARTH.” (Rev 16:1)
For me?? How is it for me? You're the one that doesn't know the facts 😂😂
But this is a good quiz for you 😂
🤔 Could I interest you in reading Revelation 15 and 16 before we continue with this discussion, please? 😂
But what I mean is that how do we know he is talking about the great tribulation and not hell?
Sorry I haven’t read revaluation in a while 😂
We know it's not after the GT because John speaks of it as happening right before the bowls of wrath are poured out.
How do you know Jesus hadn’t already returned?
Soo... do you get what I'm saying? 😉
🤔I don't get your second statement, but with your first comment: yes, that's what I'm trying to say. If they were there bc Jesus had already returned, and they'd been resurrected, then that shows the he returns BEFORE the bowls of wrath are poured out. 😉 Which is what I'm trying to show you.
Then it is POINTLESS to argue. In both situations, the people would be their.
So why can’t he be having a vision of after Jesus comes back?
So, since we've established the fact that they were IN HEAVEN, can you now plz explain how that could be? 😉
Pst, uh, Bubble, don't make me have to write another poem, ya know? 😜😂
are y’all having a debate on here?
Btw, @all, plz check Theological Debates Overflow. 😉 A new girl has joined and wants to have a small debate over there 😁
And in the NIV, it says they were beside it 😉
No, here's the verse. They stood ON it. 😉 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand ON the sea of glass, having the harps of God."
No, it says that he saw them AND a sea of glass, not beside it.
Well, he saw them beside the sea of glass, which is in heaven 😉
I'm not saying that John was not in heaven when he saw this, but I am saying that when John says that he see Saint that does not mean that they are in heaven. He can be seeing a vision of the saints or just looking down of them. Just because God sees us does not mean we are ik heaven.
Also, that thing you brought up about the words "as if it were" simply meaning "what looked like." He's saying that he's trying to best describe what he saw--another indication that he was in heaven, bc the things in heaven are too wonderful to describe in human terms.
Second, of course the saints were in heaven! You think that he saw a sea of glass mixed with fire on the earth? No...It even says in Revelation 4 that IN HEAVEN there is SEA OF GLASS. Besides, the whole chapter is about what he's seeing IN HEAVEN. It even says in verse 1: "I saw IN HEAVEN another great and marvelous sign...(vs 2) And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and..." So, it's clearly something that is literally in heaven.
First, who said you can't hold God's wrath in a bowl? I don't believe that it is JUST symbolic. I believe that in the spiritual realm, these kind of things can be actually literal. We don't see them in the natural realm, and they may seem weird to us (in this case you 😂) who are in the physical realm, but they are indeed happening in the spiritual. That is whole chapter is actually very literal.
Next, let's look at the description of them. "and I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." Now it says that he sees them, but not that they are in heaven. This can easily just be a vision of the saints that he is having. Not only that, but the the beginning of this verse it says "as if it were". Not that it is.
Ok so first, keep in mind that literally the entire chapter is symbolic. let me give you an example "Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever." You cannot hold the wrath of God in a bowl. Emotions do not have mass.
😢 Oh, Bubble, will you ever respond? Will you ever reply? Why do you remain silent as the days go by and by? If you are confuzzled, please tell us the trouble. Just give us an answer, our dear little Bubble.😪 (Poem written by myself just now 🤣)