you convinced me ๐คฉ๐คฉ
blogs.mtdv.me/articles/NRltnfcc88
If not I can send it again
did you open the link yet?
How about this, how do you think I would respond to Roger? @markerman
Thatโs not quite what I meant
ok how would you reply to rogers response
Iโd be down to answer questions, not sure about a debate rn
did someone say debate ๐๐๐
lol, Iโll not respond in case we keep going in circles ๐
, I think the Galatians verse stands for itself. I appreciate the response though
Lol, not trying to start up the debate again, I just thought of that reply last night ๐
We are perfected by the Holy Spirit through faith, which involves action, otherwise it is useless. (James 2:26). Also, "in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:4). Note the condition of living by the Spirit, which includes a lot. Someone (including a Christian) who returns to living according to the sinful nature cannot expect to have all the righteous requirements of the law met in them, since they are no longer living by faith/the Spirit.
Galatians 3:2-3 "Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" - perfected by the Holy Spirit after salvation, not our works
Interesting ๐ค There's definitely a high demand and competition for jobs these days, that's for sure ๐
Some jobs I see that get posted are already expired within less than a day of being up.
Some of my friends whoโve graduated seem to have similar experiences
Of course, I'm applying for lots of other job openings, but most of the time, it seems like my application just goes into a black hole ๐ค๐คฃ
Oh, not a whole lot going on ๐
That place that had reached out to me after I applied had me send in a short video, but that was like over 3 weeks ago and I hadn't heard anything from them. So then I followed up last week and ended up getting the same exact email as before, asking for the video, even though I had already sent it ๐ So...idk ๐คทโโ๏ธ๐
Btw, howโs your job stuff going?
Very interesting ๐ค The whole subject is definitely quite complicated ๐
Also, I found this article explaining different types of determinism. I thought it was very helpful. It explains different kinds of determinism held by Calvinists, Molinists, and some Arminians. It also shows how determinism is distinct from fatalism. https://www.proginosko.com/2014/07/calvinism-and-determinism/
Ok, I guess thatโs alright. The only thing I want to make clear is that the terms used in TULIP are widely disliked by Calvinists because they donโt accurately summarize the points. For instance, Irresistible Grace sounds like God drags humans kicking and screaming into salvation - which has nothing to do with the point. Calvinists often use the term Effective Calling instead because that more accurately summarizes the point, which is that Godโs calling always accomplishes His purpose. It doesnโt say anything happens against the human will. It just recognizes that the Holy Spirit has transformative power. Anyway, basically all the terms in TULIP are like that, just wanted to make sure you understood that ๐
Enh, I'm already pretty familiar with the five points of Calvinism...I think I'll pass ๐
@RottenE.G.S, you can add stuff if you want too, Iโm done asking questions rn
Wanna go over the 5 points of Calvinism?
I don't know if I would word it that exact way, but I think that if an individual has people praying for them to be saved, God can take away that barrier that's blinding them from seeing the truth. Obviously, there has to be some way for "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" to get through to ppl who are blinded by Satan, and I'm not the expert on exactly how that happens. Also, I would tend to think that if an individual is left completely to their own free will to accept Christ, without any influence from the enemy (which is basically impossible for there not to be, bc of sin), and only God's drawing them, that they would choose to accept His offer. But that's more of a theoretical viewpoint, bc there's always a battle for a person's soul going on.
So, would it be correct to say you believe that God chooses to take away the demons of those whom He elects, and the taking away of the demons always results in Godโs drawing to be effective within them so that they are saved?
If you are or have been trying to witness to someone, but they just aren't coming around and they keep giving excuses, it's a good idea to pray out loud and bind the demons that are operating in their life, and then try again after a little bit to ask them if they want to receive Jesus. I'll believe you'll find that they are ready all of a sudden. My dad and I have been reading an excellent book lately, about a Christian medical doctor and her friend, who was formerly a witch, and in the book she gives multiple accounts of times she used that method on ppl that weren't willing to be saved, and it worked.
And that brings up the question: if it weren't for demons keeping ppl bound, would every person who hears the gospel get saved? I think the answer would be yes. Bc God's drawing ppl to Himself is so strong that I think if left solely to an individual's own will, they wouldn't be able to resist. The reason that ppl do resist and reject God is because of Satan and his demons.
2 Cor 4:4: "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Tim 2:26: "and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Also, another thing I haven't mentioned yet is that most of time (if not possibly every time) when a person doesn't want to get saved, even though they understand their need for salvation, there are demons in them that are keeping their will bound in order to prevent them from coming to the Lord. Bc we have to also keep in mind that just as God is working to draw ppl to Himself, Satan is working to keep ppl blinded and bound.
(Like, in terms of how much of the free will vs God's sovereignty is involved)
๐ I mean, if you agree with those, then the rest really isn't that important for us to fully understand, bc God knows what He's doing ๐
No worries, I had a feeling you were just busy ๐
I pretty much agree with both statements
Sorry, I havenโt had time to respond yet
๐ Can I get an amen? ๐
Yes, I would have to agree with that. And yeah, it is something that can be tricky to understand. But I think the bottom line, that we can probably all agree with is #1: God doesn't force anyone against their will to get saved, and #2: We shouldn't stop evangelizing just bc some think that God has already sovereignly determined the fate of every individual, so whoever is meant to get saved will undoubtedly get saved no matter what, and those who aren't meant to be saved can never be saved no matter what. I think that ppl who believe that way can often have that sort of fatalistic attitude.
The point Iโm trying to make not that God wants people to perish, but that both Arminians and Calvinists have to grapple with the idea that God doesnโt want anyone to perish, yet He chose to create a world in which He foreknew not all would be saved
Would you agree that although God desires all to be saved, He still chose to create a world where He foreknew not all would be saved? Which implies that although He desired all to be saved, He had a reason in creating a world in which He knew most would not be saved?
If you say that the failure is on God, then what about all the ppl who end up in hell? Did God fail with those ppl? You could say no, he didn't fail, bc it wasn't His will for them to be saved--now wait a minute. I thought the Bible said that it's NOT God's will for ANY to perish, but for ALL to come to repentance. So then again, did God fail, since millions end up in hell? No...Again, the failure is on the part of the individual who ended up in hell. They are responsible for their own actions and decisions. And that is true of every person--we have to make the choice ourselves.
"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt. 22:14. How do you interpret that verse then? I don't believe the failure is on God's part, but rather on the part of the individual who rejected Him.
Anyway, it sounds as though in Arminianism God tries and fails to save all of humanity. This is the first problem Calvinists have with Arminianism because to Calvinists, God can never fail - โMy counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purposeโ Isaiah 46:10. So, if God calls everyone and He failed, how is that biblical? Here are 3 solutions: 1. Universalism argues God calls everyone and canโt fail, therefore everyone will go to heaven eventually. 2. Calvinists argue God did not call everyone, and those whom He does call are persuaded to come to Him. 3. Arminians say God calls everyone and He canโt fail, but then they deny universalism. So, it seems in Arminianism God calls everyone and actually does fail to persuade people. Because if you say Godโs purposes (calling everyone) can be resisted, then that means Godโs purposes can be failed by humans.
Yeah, that was one of the ones I said yes to ๐
And youโd agree the majority of people will not choose God despite his drawing as seen in Matthew 7:13-14?
@RottenEGS, that's interesting, although I would still say that God doesn't "force" anyone against their will to be saved, and that it's still possible for someone to resist/reject God.
And would you say that if someone has a complete understanding of the truth, that understanding comes from God?
@Roger, you would also say that the majority of people will not accept Godโs drawing/persuading them? (Matthew 7:13-14)
I do have a few more questions, and then I you can jump in some more ๐
Interesting, I didnโt know that ๐ค
also something to consider: if you look at the word draw as in "no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him", the greek word draw actual means to compel by force-used of the authorities dragging paul into the marketplace, used of the rich dragging the poor into courts.
Hmmm, its been interesting seeing you guys discuss this. I'm actually pretty strongly convinced about the doctrines of grace/calvinism. would it be ok if I jumped in on the side of the Calvinist?
Yes, I would definitely say that. "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN to myself.โ John 12:32
Would you also say that God tries to persuade and draw everyone to Him?
John 3:36: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever REJECTS the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.โ Notice that it's possible for someone to reject the Lord. This indicates free will.
Yes, I would agree with both of those. God influences and draws ppl to himself, but doesn't force them.
Would you also agree that persuasion is not the same as force?
I think we both agree that Godโs drawing is not the same as God forcing, but his drawing is necessary for someone to come to him, correct?
I thought I should drop this verse in. Then I'll ๐ค๐ "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". (Jn 6:44a)
Yeah, sure, I understand. Probably it can vary. For some, they may hear the truth and they "know what it means", but they still reject it for one reason or another. Others may not really fully get it.
I think a lot of the parts of preveniant grace make sense, thereโs just some details Iโm trying to understand if thatโs ok
By โpeople who resist,โ I mean unbelievers
Do the people who resist understand the truth, do they see and hear the truth for what it is?
Like it was stated in the excerpt I gave, I believe that God's grace draws a person towards salvation and shows them the truth, but that grace is resistible, bc of the human free will, so the ultimate choice is left up to the individual.
I think the next question is why do they want to believe? Is it because God opened their eyes to the truth or because they decided with no influence from God?
Ok, but even in that case, they didnโt want to believe at the time they died
Yes, I would agree with that (although there could be someone in hell who at one time maybe felt like they might want to believe in Jesus, but then the enemy distracted them from that and they ended up dying before they got saved).
To be clear, donโt believe anyone is forced to believe against their will. You would agree that no one is in hell who wanted to believe in the Christian God, and no one is in heaven who didnโt accept Christianity, correct?
Rev 3:20: "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Notice how Jesus is a gentleman, who will stand at the door of a person's heart and knock, waiting to see if they will let Him in. He doesn't kick down the door and barge in, whether they want Him or not.
Salvation is a free gift available to anyone who will RECEIVE it. Notice the receiving part. It's not something that's forced. Suppose I have a gift for you, and instead of just offering it to you and allowing you to accept it or decline it, I come up and shove it into your arms and then hold a gun to your head until you finally agree to receive the gift and open it. That's not how God works. He gives the offer of salvation to us, but it's up to us whether we will accept it or not.
I believe salvation is available for all who will accept it. Some people may have more of an opportunity to accept Christ than others, but I would think that if God desires for all to be saved, and he died for the sins of the whole word (1 John 2:2), wouldn't He make it so that anyone who wants to accept Him can?
So it sounds like you believe everyone is called by God. Does that mean everyone has an equal chance to accept Christ?
So, here's an expert from a Wikipedia article on Arminianism, and it explains what they (and I) believe about the conversion process. "Grace is resistible: God takes initiative in the salvation process and his grace comes to all people. This grace (often called pre-regenerating or prevenient grace) acts on all people to convince them of the Gospel, draw them strongly towards salvation, and enable the possibility of sincere faith. Picirilli states that 'indeed this grace is so close to regeneration that it inevitably leads to regeneration unless finally resisted.' The offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.
Man has a freed will to respond or resist: Free will is granted and limited by God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignty allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist."
In other words, how COMPATIBLE are our viewpoints of compatibilism? ๐
Iโm curious where we differ within compatibilism
Hmm, well, I would also consider myself a compatibilist ๐
Yes, I think I agree with that viewpoint.
Would you consider yourself a compatibilist? https://www.gotquestions.org/compatibilism.html
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