Lol, yeah it private at one point, but that was just temporary so that we could exchange some secret info 😏😅
Ok, good.😂 I could have sworn I read something like this was supposed to be private. Phew.😅
Just making sure, it’s okay for me to be in this group right guys?😅 Bc if not I’ll leave.😁
I don’t plan on that happening again
on the Theo discussions I said I would respond and it’s been almost a year ☹️
hopefully that doesnt mean what it meant in the debate group 🤔
I have a paper to write this week for a class, so I probably won't be able to respond for a bit
3. There are actually verses in the Bible that show that someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life. Rev 3:5: "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." He's saying that only those who overcome will have their names be kept in the book of life. If someone does not overcome, their name will be blotted out. Exodus 32:32-33 "But now, please forgive their sin–but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.” 33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book."
2. I believe that when we sin, we are under a grace period, where Jesus is interceding for us (1 John 2:1) and God gives us time to repent (Rev 2:21). But if we just continue on without repenting and let sin build up in our lives, that's where we can end up drifting away from the Lord and ultimately forfeiting our salvation.
1. I don't see how "If we deny" could not imply possibility, as the other parts of that saying are not only just possibilities, but scenarios that actually happen: "If we died with him", "if we endure", "if we are faithless". All of those are actual possible scenarios for a believer, not just unbelievers. Also, so you're saying that when it says "he will also disown us", it just means "we'll lose our reward"? That doesn't seem to make sense...
Sorry, too late, Henry 😏😂
4: Also, Jesus said he prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail. So, I take it literally that Peter’s faith did not fail. Finally, why would God put Peter’s name in the book of life, then scratch it out, then put it back in? Especially if He knew Peter would repent?
3: About repentance: I believe in two kinds of repentance. The first is a state of repentance. In the sacrificial system, each act of repentance was accompanied by sacrifice(s) to atone for sins. Now, we only have one sacrifice for all sins for all time, which implies the need for only one repentance (Hebrews 12:5-13). It comes from deciding to switch your allegiance and identity with the world, to allegiance and identity in Christ. The second kind of repentance is the living out of the first repentance. If you sin, you repent, not because you lost salvation, but because you are still in a state of repentance. You may still struggle with sin, but your identity is in Christ and not with evil (Romans 7:18-8:1). This is the repentance from Luke 22:32: Peter is returning, not to the faith, but to fellowship with Jesus
2: Thank you for pointing that out about what word was used. So, I think that even if they use the same word, the context of the other two passages is different from Matt 26, which means the word doesn’t necessarily have the same implications that it has in the context of the other two passages.
1: “If we deny” doesn’t necessarily imply possibility, and “we/us” could include those who only appear to believe. 2 Tim 2 is also about doing good deeds for eternal reward, so the context could mean it’s talking about a loss of a heavenly reward. Note: there are three interpretations of these passages that I know of: deny = of unbelievers, deny = loss of a reward, and deny = loss of salvation. I think the idea of losing salvation is contradictory to many other scriptures and is not logical, so I think the other two interpretations are more likely. And I can present the arguments for both too.
Can you repeat the secret markerman?
Here’s my response to the your last posts
Alright, I'm gonna delete the secret now 😏😉
I won’t tell anyone since Roger already knows
Hey, Markerman, do you want the group private for this? 😏
hey Will can i tell u a secret? can i trust u wont share with other
You saw what I said in the c***** ***** group, right? Just checking, cuz if you have, I'm going to go ahead and delete the group.
Ok, the group's public again
Yeah definitely, so much easier to think
Lol, yeah 😆 I definitely much prefer this kind of calm, logical, one-on-one debating with Will, vs the chaotic "going around in circles" method with multiple ppl all debating real time 😂
all the action moved from the theological debate group to here
Thirdly, even though Peter did fall away, his faith ULTIMATELY did not fail, bc he repented, and Jesus reinstated him, in John 21. As you pointed out, Jesus said in Luke 22:32, "once you have returned again". That means "to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again)". Essentially that's the definition of repentance. So Peter was restored to the faith bc he repented.
Second, even though Mat 10:33 and Mat 26 don't use the same Greek word, they mean the same thing essentially. Plus, later on in Mat 26:70, when it tells of Peter's denial, the Greek word it uses is the same one in Mat 10:33, meaning Peter denied Jesus in the exact way that Jesus spoke of in Mat 10:33.
Ok, so first, I don't believe that it's only unbelievers that Jesus was saying could deny him. Bc 2 Tim 2:12 also says: "If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; " Paul here is using the words "we" and "us", referring to those who are believers. And the Greek word for deny in that verse is the same one used in Mat 10:33.
Part 3: Finally, Luke 22:31 means Peter’s faith did not fail him despite his denial. This verse says, “But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” Note: the greek word for “turned back” is “epistrephó” which means literally “to return.” Also note the wording of the passage: Jesus says, “that your faith may not fail. And when you have returned,” which means faith not failing and returning both can happen at the same time. It implies Peter’s faith had not failed him because he returned. This also means, Peter did not need to be reconverted because his faith had not failed him in the first place.
Point 2: Matthew 10:33 and Matthew 26 also use two different greek words for “deny”, suggesting that the passages are not meant to be connected. The greek word arnēsētai for 10:33 means to deny with the connotation of contradicting, the greek word aparnēsē means to deny with the connotation of denying association with something or of ignoring something. The words suggest 10:33 means a person is in complete contradiction of the gospel and Jesus, while the Matthew 26 means Peter was not fully contradicting despite his outward denial.
Point 1: Matthew 10 is a the passage where Jesus is sending out the disciples to preach to unbelievers in Israel. In verses 28-32, Jesus says they should not fear those who can only destroy the body because God knows even when a sparrow is killed let alone his disciples. Therefore, they should not fear because they acknowledge Jesus before others. Those who do deny Jesus (I.e. those who destroy the body/unbelievers) will be denied by Jesus. So because of the context of the passage, I believe that those who deny Jesus in the verse is referring to unbelievers.
Ok, so, the two passages you are referring to are Matthew 10:33, “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also
deny before my Father which is in heaven.” and Matthew 26:69-75 which is the story of Peter denying Jesus. Right?
Plus, even Peter fell away by denying Christ, and he had previously been a true disciple. If Peter had not repented after denying Christ, he wouldn't have been saved, bc Jesus said that whoever disowns him before men, he will disown before the Father. So Peter is an actual biblical example of a true believer that committed apostasy.
But remember that when Jesus was saying this, Judas was not even around. Plus, in John 6:35-40, he says "whoever comes to me I will never drive away." So, yes, Jesus is not going to drive someone away from him, but if they themselves wander away from him, then they are no longer "in the fold" so to speak. So that's why Jesus is telling us to REMAIN in Him.
Jesus gives direct confirmation that faith is secure assured in John 3:16–17; 6:35–40; 10:27–29. John 6:35-40 is especially relevant because it says those who come to Christ will never be cast out, unlike the unfruitful branches in verse 15:6. So, I believe the passage is saying those who do not remain are like branches that were never properly connected to get the nutrients and ability to make fruit, and if they had been properly connected to the vine they would’ve born fruit - this is very similar to Matthew 13:20-21 where the plants that grew but never had any roots are the ones that died. Lastly, two possible reason Jesus told this to his desiples is: Judas Iscariot was one that was never really connected (stole money and betrayed Jesus), and also to show what being connected to the vine looks like
Well what about John 15:4-6? Jesus is telling his own disciples (who were obviously true followers of Christ) to remain in Him. And He said in verse 6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." So, why would Jesus be telling true believers (His disciples) to remain in Him, if it was impossible for them NOT to remain in Him? 🤔 "Remain in me, and I will remain in you." (v4) So, if we DON'T remain in Him, and choose to walk away, Jesus will not remain in us, which means that He was actually in us to begin with.
Also, look at Matthew 13:20-21, which explains that those who fall away never had roots, and 1 John 1:18-19 which explains that those who leave the faith during the end times were never of us. So, if you are not a believer with roots (ie not a true believer), you will fall away, but if you are a true believer, you have all of those verses supporting the idea that God will sustain you
I agree that only those who stand firm will be saved. And if you are a believer, God will sustain you so that you will stand firm. This is a list of some of the verses that point to God's sustaining power which is in us through the indwelling of His Spirit: Isaiah 46:4, Isaiah 43:2, Psalm 54:4, Psalm 55:22, Psalm 73:26, Philippians 4:19, 2 Thessalonians 3:3, Isaiah 26:3, Isaiah 12:2, Isaiah 41:13, Hebrews 1:3, Isaiah 40:29, Isaiah 41:10, Nahum 1:7, Lamentations 3:22-23, Romans 6:14, Nehemiah 9:6, Romans 8:28, Acts 17:25, John 16:33, 2 Timothy 1:7, Proverbs 30:5, Psalm 48:14, Acts 2:21, Philippians 1:6, 2 Peter 1:21, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Corinthians 13:4, Jude 1:24-25, 2 Timothy 1:12, Psalm 18:35, Psalm 18:39, Psalm 89:21, Colossians 1:17, 2 Corinthians 12:9
"At that time many will TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other...Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END will be saved." (Matt 24:10,12-13, emphasis added) He's saying that many will turn away from the faith (Greek word used here means: To “scandalize”; from G4625; to entrap, that is, trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin, APOSTASY or displeasure): - (make to) offend.) It says that ONLY those who stand firm to the end will be saved, not just anyone who once became a Christian, since there will be those that fall away/apostatize.
Cool. And as I said, I think the verse is very applicable to our lives, but I would take too long to explain it for what we're doing 🙃
Ok, next verse (I had another couple verses from the Old Testament, but I'm going to leave those out, since you'll basically say the same thing 🙃 I still believe they apply though, and you can take a look at them when I add the collection later)
Ok, well at least it wasn't too long of a response 😅😆 I had a feeling you'd say that, but I have plenty of New Testament verses coming, so hold on to your seat 😏😂 And I still believe that it applies to believers under the new covenant, as we are the Lord's saints. In the verse, that meant "the Jews", but that's what it meant to its original hearers, and it can still be applied to our lives today, as many things in the Old Testament can.
That doesn't mean Psalm 85:8 is inapplicable to Christians, but I'm already going way past 1 sentence, so... yeah
In Psalm 85 verses 1-3, God is said to have restored Israel in the past, but in verses 4-9 the psalmist is asking God to restore Israel again and shows how Israel can be restored. This means that the Jews can and did fall away from atonement and needed to be restored again. Jews can fall away because they are under the sacrificial system, which means they have to repent (with sacrifices) in order to stay covered by atonement. Christians are under a new covenant in which there is one sacrifice and one repentance continual for all time, the difference is laid out clearly in Hebrews 10:1-18.
Sorry, this is more than one sentence, I had to look at the broader context of the passage to get a full understanding of the verse's meaning, especially that "his people" and "his saints" in this context is referring specifically to faithful Jews.
Uhh...the sentence would be nice 😅🤣
Would you like a sentence response, or seven posts?👨🏻💻
I will probably have the same answer for some of them that are more similar
"I will listen to what God the LORD will say; he promises peace to his people, his saints- but let them not return to folly." (Psalm 85:8) Here he's warning the Lord's saints not to return to folly (sin), which means that it is possible for that to happen with a true believer.
It's about 50 verses, btw 😅
Alright, so these are verses that show it is definitely possible for
a saved person (not just someone who was supposedly saved) to backslide and fall away from the Lord. I'll do them one at a time and add a brief comment after each one.
Ok, well, I had a few more questions, but we can go on to the verses now
I'm not trying to contradict what he's saying, I'm just trying to summarize it
So, basically number 3 is a yes?
So, 1. Yes, he's saying that rebellion and idolatry are sins. 2. Yes, I think he's grouping faults, failures, and sins in the same category, so just basically using different synonyms to describe the same thing. 3. So, basically, if you look at Col 1:22-23, it says: "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation–" Then God lists the conditions for this to be so IN HIS SIGHT. ""IF you continue in the FAITH (in his covering) grounded and settled (confident), and be not moved away from the HOPE OF THE GOSPEL (this Good News) ..." So, we are no longer going to be considered blameless and holy in God's sight when we rebel or commit idolatry, bc when we do those things, we remove ourselves out from underneath the atonement covering. Obviously, that doesn't mean that we cannot ever go back, bc we can by repenting, and God will forgive any sin if we repent (unless it's the unforgivable sin, ofc)
Though I’m not sure I was very clear what I meant. What I wanted to know was: 1. Does he consider rebellion and idolatry sins? 2. Are faults and failures synonyms for sin, or are they different things? 3. If idolatry and rebellion are sins, then that means some sins are covered by atonement and some are not. Right? (Man being the active agent in this) [I’m trying to ask simpler yes/no type questions, so we can get on to the verses soon]
So, shall we go through those verses I mentioned? 😉
It has to do with the free will of man. One can choose to walk away from the Lord (which is called apostasy), and at that point they are no longer saved.
I think what he's saying is that when someone commits rebellion or idolatry, they are removing themselves out from under the atonement cover. He said "It is not that God removes the covering, it is not that God goes down and looks under it, but man removes himself. Look at the life of Israel and you will find that whenever God smote them and punished them, it was because of rebellion and idolatry."
Also, I recreated the OSAS Affirmed Verses Collection
At one point, he says there is an edge beyond which the covering does not reach. He says the edge is crossed when someone rebels or commits idolatry, but the diagram says God sees Holiness instead of sin. Is he saying that some sins are not rebellion and idolatry and those are covered, but the sins of rebellion and idolatry are not covered?
It was an interesting article. I like the diagram too. I definitely agree that grace is not a license to sin, and that God is a God of love and of wrath. I did have a point I wanted clarified
Alright, I posted the article in there for you 😉
The link goes to a blog and I have all .blogspot domains blocked on my phone
@Markerman, you're welcome 😊; yeah, I understand what you are talking about, and there's definitely nothing wrong with needing to be reminded of the grace of God, as it is crucial. 😄
Hmm...I can guess I could do that, but it's gonna be a little messy, probably 🤔😅 If you're on the app, you can just manually the type the link into your browser, since it's really short, or you can go onto the website and copy and paste the link 😉
Lol, thanks, I'll add the collection once I'm done going thru them with you 😉
should be called Copy/paste
You are invited to the "Copy/paste" Bible memorization group: https://biblememory.com/group/app/4f3e5c9993/
I can’t access the link, would it be possible for you to copy/paste the text into a different group, so I can read it?
I gave you admin roll so you should be able to add it
fyi the connection I deleted was the one for this group 🤪
thanks 😊 i get hung up on the warning part bc of how i grew up so i find myself needing to read more scripture on God’s love and grace since i can forget that part too easily but clearly remember the other part, and enemy likes to use the warning verses against me when i lose sight of the grace part 😅😅
Just as an added thought, I know what you mean that there are definitely those times when what we need to hear more about is the aspect of God's grace and forgiveness, vs warnings against sin. But some ppl (I'm not saying you 😅) can get too hung up on the grace part, and they forget the other aspect. So it's important to keep a good balance btwn the two.
Yeah, I know it can be frightening to hear the warnings, but they're there for our protection, to help us have a healthy fear of the Lord. But like you said, we can't let fear take over and rule. Just remember that the Lord is loving, gracious and forgiving, and there's that balance between the grace of God and the sternness of God. "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." (Romans 11:22-23) God gives us warnings because He loves us, not because He is eager to condemn us when we screw up. That's what His grace is there for. He's not expecting us to try to do it all on our own. Hope that helps 🤗
thanks that was helpful especially the painting and the scripture references 😄 but ill be honest the warnings part wasnt building up to me tho since im fully aware of them but being told in the way it was told only makes me fear in the wrong way since i am far from being perfected in love to have that kind of that fear cast out 😅 i will end up doing stuff out of fear of punishment instead of love for God which is why for me at least i need to hear grace more to not sin 😅😅
Yeah, I'm just surprised I didn't discover it sooner 😆
First, though, it would be great if you and Markerman could take a look at this article my dad wrote about the Keeping Power of God. It will help clearly explain what my beliefs are on the matter. Let me know what you guys think 😄 https://tinyurl.com/3xdpfjzh
i had a feeling ud come across it sooner or later 😂😂
So, I don't really want to get into a huge, full-blown debate (cuz it's VERY time-consuming 😂), but maybe I can just post a verse one at a time, and see what your comments are on them, Will 😉
Will, you should add my collection "Apostasy Warnings" to the group, lol 😅
Hey, just discovered this while looking thru the group list 😂
like the ppl who believe someone can lose their salvation by intentionally sinning and not repenting but then ig u can srgue that they didnt have the saving faith
doesnt grace cover if we didnt do it intentionally
Also, your right. We shouldn't test grace, but statistically you will sin at some point, right? And you are statistically more likely to do certain sins than others. So, for example, how do you know whether something like forgetting to turn the lights off multiple times doesn't make you unsaved?
No. I mean they were all the common verses about security of faith, so I could find them again. It would just take a long time
do u have the verses recorded elsewhere 😭😭😭
but if you sre saved you wouldnt want to keep testing grace right
good question. probably something i dont want to test to find out whether there is a cobweb or just God’s grace
I just accidentally deleted the OSAS Affirmed Verses collection 😭
So, to continue with and metaphor though. it begs the questions, how many sins does it take to cut the cobweb so you aren’t saved anymore? and do certain kinds of sins cut more than others?
That’s fine. I didn’t have a strong opinion about for a long time
hard for me to stick with one
just to note i dont have a strong belief in either one and like to hear both sides
yeah i think so at least im asking from the side of being able to lose salvation
I like your use of the analogy with the cobweb. Am I correct that you mean the cobweb is God holding us up through his grace, then if we sin that cuts the cobweb, and after enough cuts the cobweb breaks and we are no longer saved?
You being up a good point about the cobweb
I’ll probably ask the question at some point
u should ask that wuestion in theological discussion 😁😁
what if johnny had a cobweb so many threads would have to be cut before he would face wrath of being unsaved
(I don’t mean that as a rhetorical question, I’m genuinely curious to know how non-OSAS know that they aren’t condemned 99% of the time)
What other solutions are there so that you are not under the wrath of God for 99% of every day?
Part 2: The point I want to make about OSAS is this. Recall how Johnny was only saved for several minutes of the day because any one of his sins immediately made him unsaved again. To be unsaved means you are that wicked spider that God could justly send to hell for all eternity whenever he wants. An unbeliever is under the wrath of God, and his justice could come at any time.
Part 1: The main point of the sermon is that the unbeliever is condemned by God. They are condemned for the wickedness of their sins. The only reason God hasn’t sent the unbeliever to hell is because of his mercy to let them live another day. Despite this mercy, the unbeliever is never safe because at any moment God could decide to let his divine justice rain down on them, and it would be God’s pleasure to expunge their wickedness from the earth. That is why the Bible calls unbelievers vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and says he is willing to show his wrath (Romans 9:22). The author of the sermon uses the analogy that an unbeliever is like a spider dangling by a thread over the pit of hell and that God may cut that thread at any moment He pleases. The conclusion urges unbelievers to repent and believe because to not believe means risking hellfire coming for them at any moment for all eternity future.
Anyway, if you get a chance to read it, it’s really good
no, it’s super old, so you can probably find a pdf somewhere
Well, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God is only about 15 pages
but i like reading when i do read
or books at all except for textbooks but i just skim those 😅
no i havent reach much christian books 😅😅
Have you ever read, Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God?
I’ll look into it, that might still take awhile cause they used a ton of scripture that I’d need to put into context
now for the debate response ?? 😃😃
i see why it took so long now 😯😮😦 thanks 🥲
I also added a case study of the Lordship Salvation branch of OSAS' effects on society as seen through the Puritans
Here is the story of 16 year old Johnny. Johnny is a Christian and tries to obey God with his whole heart. But every time Johnny sins, he loses his salvation. Let’s take a look at Johnny’s day, and see how often he goes from being Gods friend to Gods enemy in just a day. His alarm clock went off, but he got up at 7:01. His mom wanted him to be up at 7, so, technically, Johnny sinned. He is now a creature of darkness and wrath instead of being a creature of light. On his way out of his room to use the bathroom he forgot to clean the doorknob. Johnny’s mom is a germaphobe and wants him to clean every doorknob before touching it. He usually does clean them because he wants to obey his parents despite them not always being reasonable, but he forgot this time. While brushing his teeth, he only brushed for 30 seconds instead of 1 minute as his father instructed many years ago. He also left the toilet seat up and used the wrong towel to dry his hands as he had been told not to do. He also used the wrong clothe to clean the doorknob on the way out of the bathroom. On his way down stairs, he walked too quickly and made noise.
His parents often complained of him making noise on the stairs. During his morning prayer, Johnny asked forgiveness for all his sins. He has now moved from old creature to new creature again because his sins of the morning were forgiven. After his prayer, he got up and forgot to turn off the lamp which father wanted kept off when not being used. He now moved from being a new creation back to being dead and unsaved. He then proceeded to not put the cereal box back in the pantry after using it which he’d often been scolded for. He also chewed with his mouth open twice, which often annoyed his mother - it was a repeated sin. It is now 8:00 am in Johnny’s world. He left for school at 8:01, one minute after he was supposed to. In the car, Johnny prayed again for all his sins to be forgiven. He moved being an object of wrath to being in dwelled by the Holy Spirit. As soon as he was done praying, he noticed a billboard with an inappropriate picture on it. He thought about it a little too long before pushing it out of his mind. Which means the Holy Spirit left him, and he is now an object of wrath again. He apologized for it, so the spirit came back. After apologizing, he thought of how worried he was for his grades breaking the command to not worry. The spirit left him again because he sinned by worrying. He arrived at school at 8:15. He got to class, and he had a hard time paying attention (disrespectful to teacher), and he tapped his feet unconsciously which he had been told annoyed the person next to him. He also forgot to take notes as he has been told to do. The class was over at 9:30. He repeated the same three sins in the next two classes, not paying attention, tapping his feet annoyingly, and not taking notes.
At lunch, he sat next to his friend. He could’ve sat next to the kid sitting alone, but Johnny chose not to (sin of omission). He had sat next to lonely kids before, but today he chose not to even though there was someone sitting alone today. During his conversation with his friend, he judged his friend for using bad language while he himself often used words like gosh and darn as replacements for bad words. He also listened to his friend gossip without putting a stop to the gossip. Johnny also told a joke about the school bully that denigrated the bully instead of showing love to his enemy. He also felt a moment of hatred for a sinner/world leader, though it was so momentary he didn’t realize it. He also said the current US President does’t know what he’s doing which is disrespect to authority. He also didn’t eat everything on his plate, which his parents said he should do. It is now 12:30 pm in Johnny’s world. In the next class, Johnny repeated the three sins from before (not paying close attention, tapping foot, not taking notes). This time, however, he noticed a girl in front of him was pretty. A wrong thought appeared in his mind, and he let it stay there too long before pushing it away. He apologized to God for it. Unfortunately, he only apologized for that one sin and not all the other’s, so he is still dead in his trespasses and sins (unsaved). He also started worrying about the homework he’d just been given, and felt resentful and bitter that he had to do it. At 3:30, school is out!
He goes to baseball practice now and judges his teammates for talking dirty. Although he tries not to, Johnny feels superior to his teammates because he didn’t talk dirty. At one point, he laughed at one of the course jokes from a teammates in spite of himself. He apologized for it to God, but he only apologized for that one sin, so he wasn’t restored to faith as he hadn’t asked for forgiveness from his other sins. His coach gave him an instruction, and Johnny didn’t listen the first time. Coach grudgingly repeated himself before commanding him again to listen the first time. He made a good catch in practice, and took the glory for himself instead of giving the glory to God. He thought something disrespectful about his coach for a second after being yelled at for missing an easy throw. At 4:30, Johnny drove home. He kept his eyes off the billboards, but he went over the speed limit numerous times. He also honked impatiently at a driver who was driving below the speed limit. He also checked a text on his phone which is illegal. He also passed by a beggar on the street without giving anything, though he did pray for the beggar and wished he had something to give. He also didn’t come to a complete stop at a stop sign which is illegal. He also forgot to turn on his turn signal while in a turn lane. At 4:45, he got home and locked the car, but accidentally left a light on in it which his dad said not to ever do. He then proceeded to leave the door unlocked after entering the house and forgot to take off his shoes. At 5:00, Johnny was on his phone instead of doing homework. His mom called him to dinner, and he didn’t come right away as he’d been told to do. At dinner, Johnny lied by saying he was doing fine when he was actually still worried about homework. He also lied by saying his friend was doing ok when his friend was actually struggling with severe depression and anxiety.
He held his fork the wrong way against parental instruction, sipped his drink loudly, and slurped his soup louder than his dad liked. He also chewed with his mouth open for a second which he’d been told not to ever do. After dinner, he forgot to put his plate in the dishwasher and put it in the sink instead, and he didn’t throw his napkin away as his parents wanted him to. He then proceeded to not do his best on his homework despite his parents urging him to do so. He also got distracted watching YouTube which his parents didn’t want him to watch. He caught himself and got back on track and finished his homework. He did forget to put his pencil away and left his computer on the table which was supposed to be cleared when not used. His mom asked him to get the mail, he went outside in his socks and no shoes on even though his mother told him never to go outside with socks on and no shoes. He got the mail out, one of the items had a picture of an attractive woman on it. An inappropriate image popped into his head, and he thought about it for a bit before pushing it out of his head. He apologized for it profusely to God, but he still hadn’t asked for forgiveness for his other sins throughout the day. He hit his toe on the step at the door and said gosh and darn which are replacements for bad words and imply the original terms. For the rest of the evening, he played Minecraft. While playing he chatted with his friends.
He said gosh and darn in the chat and was impatient with a user who didn’t know any of the controls. He also attacked a village unprovoked for fun. At 9:00, his mom told him to go to bed. He waited 5 minutes before getting off Minecraft instead of instantly obeying his mother. He brushed his teeth for too short a time again. He also left the bathroom light when he went to his room. Here, he did his evening prayers and asked for forgiveness for all his sins. He finally moved from being unsaved to saved again because his sins were forgiven after he asked forgiveness of them. Right after he was done praying, he changed into his pajamas and left his clothes on the floor which his parents clearly told him not to ever do. He then moved from being saved to unsaved again. In bed, he remembered he forgot to turn off the bathroom light but decided he was too tired to get up and turn it off. He went to sleep at 9:53 as an unsaved man. All together, Johnny spent less than 1 minute of his day as an born again saved believer. His sins here may be petty sins, but they are sins nonetheless, and we know you can’t be saved with unrepented of sin.
so just like the debate response 🥲
It’s school and stuff getting in the way
just like the debate response right
ok, it’ll take a bit, but I’ll get on here soon
I just thought of an argument that shows how horrible life would be if a single sin means you are no longer saved, wanna hear it?
But yeah that pretty much summarizes it
There are multiple ways to think about free will that work
how does free will play into this? do u say that someone who chooses not to be saved was never saved in first place?
Ok, here is my thinking on this. Remember God knows everything about everyone all the time. So what could He be referring to when He says, “I never knew you.”? He has to be referring the fact that He never knew them as a believer. Could it mean He knew them as a believer once, but then stopped believing in their heart, so it’s as if He never knew them? Let’s use your analogy to prove this couldn’t be the case. If your friends betrays you, then they are showing that they never really were your friend. Everything you thought you knew so well about them was a facade. When your friendship was under pressure, they showed they didn’t care for your friendship enough to stick with you. Their lack of faithfulness showed what was really in their heart. So, you in fact did not know them, even though you thought you did. Notice that a human may think and feel like they are friends with someone who is not actually a friend. God cannot do this (1 John 4:7-8, John 17:25, Psalm 5:4-6). God knows our heart from the beginning, and God is only ever in relationship with those whose heart is truly with Him. So, if someone says they believe when they do not believe in their heart and they die, God has never been in a relationship with them, so He says, “I never knew you.”
Good point, I'll think about it for a while
technically he did know him as they were very close friends but its like he never knew him since he would betray his friend like that
what about someone saying to a once good friend i never knew you because of how bad he betrayed him
Probably that Hebrews 6:4-6 sounds like it refers to an actual case when a true believer can fall away. But put in the context of God having never known the lawless (including those who fall away)(Matthew 7:21-23), I think the Hebrews verse is talking about a hypothetical case that can't actually happen. In other words, the Hebrews verse is saying imagine this circumstance: if a true believer falls away, then they cannot be restored. Other verses show this doesn't actually happen, but if it did happen then this would be the result. But Roger would point to other verses that say believers can fall away, to which I would respond with verses that show people believing but not with their heart and then falling away, and that if the mind still affirms God's law even when the body doesn't, then you are still saved
i wonder how roger would respond
good points thanks for sharing
Part 6: In summary, part 1 says sinning does not mean you fell away by denying God because the Spirit in your inner-self still affirms God’s law. Part 2 says that a true believer cannot be restored if they leave the faith (Hebrews 6:4-6). Part 3 says the one who left the faith never believed in the first place (otherwise, they could not be restored) and shows how people can give the appearance of believing without believing from the heart. Part 4 says God changes the heart of a believer. Part 5 says God changes the believer’s heart permanently.
Part 5: So we see that God changes our heart. But is this change of our heart permanent? Yes, “for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29). And just as this verse said that the gifts of God are irrevocable (irrevocable means irreversible), so it is that when you were given eternal life when you were saved, you logically cannot die. Also, recall the Ezekiel 11:19, your heart of stone was replaced with a heart of flesh; such a drastic change could not be more complete; imagine what it would take to undo that. (Add permanent seal verse)
Part 4: Their only hope then is that they were not true believers before, and when they become a true believer, God changes their heart forever. “And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,” (Ezekiel 11:19). “Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Galatians 4:6). “I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7). “For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.” (2 Corinthians 4:6). “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” (Hebrews 8:10).
Part 3 (continued 2): The man appears to believe, but the belief never takes root in his heart. Because he did not believe in his heart, he fell away. If he had believed in his heart, he would not have fallen away (see next part). Also, see that God has never known those who fall away (i.e. those who did not believe from the heart). “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:21-23). It isn’t that they knew God (which would mean they were saved) and then fell away, but they never knew God. So, those who fell away were not believers because they never believed in their heart even when they affirmed the gospel with their lips.
Part 3 (continued): According to scripture, I think it is not possible that a person who denies God in their heart was ever a true believer. They were those that affirmed a set of facts about God (aka easy-believism) but did not believe from their heart. “‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.” (Matthew 15:8). “The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away”(Matthew 13:20-21).
Part 3: So what hope is there for the believer who denies God and then returns to the faith? Many believers struggle with doubt and with whether they believe, and you have probably heard of those who decided they wanted nothing to do with God but later came back. If Hebrews 6:4-6 is interpreted as saying that such a person was a true believer and left the faith, then they can’t be resaved after leaving. So, we must ask ourselves whether the person who left was actually a true believer, because if they were a true believer they would not be able to be restored (Hebrews 6:4-6).
Part 2: It is asserted in part 1 that sinning does not mean you fell away (i.e. denied God in you heart) because the Spirit in your inner self still affirms God. But the question remains, can a believer actually make the decision to leave the faith? Let’s assume believers can lose their salvation by denying God in their heart. Hebrews 6:4-6 says such a person can never be restored to the faith: “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6). So, if it is possible for believers to deny God in their hearts after being saved, then it is impossible to be renewed afterwords because Christ would have to be crucified again. That’s pretty high stakes.
Part 1: Do you willfully deny God in your heart and fall away every time you sin? No, in fact Paul says he does not deny God when he sins. “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want (notice how he says he practices what he does not want and this is after he has been saved). But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God IN THE INNER MAN, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death” (Romans 7:18-25, 8:1-2). We see Paul’s mind is in agreement with God’s law even while his flesh wages was against it (notice how they exist simultaneously in the believer). The mind wins over the flesh because “…you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:9-10). Alive because of what righteousness? The concurrence of with the law of God in the inner man (see all caps), in other words, belief from the heart. So, even if you do not do the good you want to do but do what you hate (Romans 7:15-16), if you have the spirit of God, you are in alliance with God (Romans 8:1-11). And we know we have the spirit of God when put our faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:26 - you are sons of God through faith in Jesus, Galatians 4:6 - the sons of God are given the Holy Spirit).
I think that the answer is that a believer will not deny God because their will has been permanently transformed by God. If you want my very detailed answer explaining this let me know 🙃
If I said yes, then that would mean I don't believe in OSAS. If I said no, than that would imply that I believe it's ok for believers to deny God. Neither of those are correct
That’s kind of a trick question
i think u said before in the theological group that ppl can lose their salvation if they reject inwardly in heart do u still believe that
Christian with disease - disease at fault Christian with no disease - could repent before they die “Christian” with no disease and unrepentant - wasn’t a Christian in the first place because a born again new creation of God wouldn’t do that. Their actions demonstrated that they did not really believe
I don’t think that’s their fault because it’s the disease’s fault.
that they wouldnt have done that thing if they were more clear headed
what if someone really believed in God wholeheartedly but was very sick with brain disease that is depression. then one day something just happened that they lost self control and did something that costed his her life that would maybe be ruled as suicide
yes but the other sides response also kinda made sense too but i forgot what it was 😅
I might respond soon, since I've been thinking about it a lot
What I mean is, anyone who is saved has eternal life (John 3:14-17, John 3:36, John 10:28). To have eternal life means you cannot die by definition (John 11:25–26, also, the definition of eternal life). Death in the Bible means to not be saved (Ephesians 2:1). Therefore, if you are saved, you have eternal life and, thus, cannot die. In other words, if you are saved, you have eternal life and, thus, cannot lose your salvation because that would mean you died after you had been given eternal life. Does that make sense?
i looked at on the theological groups are u going to finish ur osas response there ?
Conditional eternal life is a self-contradiction
Although I believe the above argument sums up the matter completely:
ive read both arguments 😵💫 ill just stay in between 😅😅