Uh... That's something I'm gonna have to look into... I've heard several pre-trib people say that and I'm going to have to look into that further before I have an adequate answer
So how do you understand from the Bible that the 144000 are preachers?
That's what I've heard the description as... What I know is that many many will come to faith in the last days. I know that the 144,000 will be very effective preachers and people will be open because of the hard time.
Ava
Thursday, Dec 19, 2019 at 11:23 PM
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Well... If they were 144,000 Billy Grahams, then we would have no problem.
Well, I’m not sure the description matches for that. It was a “multitude that no one can count.”
😂😂😂 Sorry. Thanks for understanding me
Ava
Thursday, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:32 AM
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Some people will be saved during the tribulation due to the preaching of the Jewish 144,000
Ava
Thursday, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:31 AM
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Um... Your getting terms confused... You are post trib...
If Christians are raptured before the Tribulation, how did John see people who’ve come through the great tribulation. I believe this points to pretrib.
Revelation 7:13-14 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
On our discussion when the tribulation takes place. Revelation 7 says that “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages” the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
Daniel 9:27... I'm not an expert on this passage, but I know that this is biblically supported by other passages
Interesting! How do you understand that the last week symbolizes the tribulation?
Most of it does. Then the last week is the tribulation.
I believe that the 70 weeks prophecy deals with Jesus’s first coming
Ok then. I don’t agree that the tribulation will last 7 years
70 weeks just means 70 periods of 7... So 490 years. The last "week" is the tribulation... 7 years
It's the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel
I’ve never heard that before! How interesting! How do they calculate the time? is it because of the seven seals, seven bowls, or is it just a calculated guess?
Haha... The tribulation is 7 years... Literally every Bible scholar agrees... Except amillenial...
Does the tribulation cover years and years? I don’t think the tribulation will be THAT long, maybe several months, a few weeks, idk?
Yeah... How do you believe in the imminancy of the return of Christ? If the tribulation isn't happening now, Christ cannot return
Yeah... How do you believe in the imminancy of the return of Christ? If the tribulation isn't happening now, Christ cannot return
I don’t believe the Tribulation has started yet. I believe that it will happen right before the 2nd Coming
Um... Still... No one is calling for rocks to fall in them
The ones who want the rocks to fall on them are the unrighteous. The saved won’t be alarmed. So I think this also points to that the church will be spared
Yeah... They will increase, but at the same time, in Matthew 24 he says to not be alarmed because the end is not yet. These things always have happened and will continue to happen. So at the same time that he could return at any moment, in the tribulation the world will be A LOT worse than it is now... I don't see people now calling on rocks to fall in them.
Jesus says these things will increase before he comes 😊
Actually in the passage you are referring to I believe the best understanding is that that passage refers to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. and then refers to the second coming after he says "but as for that day and hour" Jesus was saying that there will be wars and rumors of wars but don't worry, because these things have happened all the time.
The prophecy of 70 weeks in daniel. Most of it refers to Jesus's birth, 70 weeks (periods of 7) before Jesus's birth would take place... I think it was from the rebuilding of the wall? I only heard part of the explanation for this text lol. The last week (period of 7) refers to the tribulation.
Jesus gave us in Matthew signs to know what His coming is near. Wars, famines, earthquakes, etc. So we have signposts for the second coming. However we don’t know the day or the hour when Christ will return. So yeah, I’m getting what you mean, but if we’re going by what signposts there are, we have listed a good number in the Bible about Christ’s return as well.
How do you calculate how long the tribulation will last?
Revelation 15 has the 7 plagues. Chapter 16 has the “seven bowls of the wrath of God.” Revelation 16:2 “So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.” Notice that the bowl (God’s wrath during the tribulation) falls on those who have the mark of the beast. Also notice the people’s reaction to the plagues: Revelation 16:9-11 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory. The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.” Obviously these plagues will not be poured out on the church, because the church won’t blaspheme God or not repent. Revelation 18 talks about the fall of Babylon and this happens BEFORE Revelation 19 where the Marriage Supper takes place. So looking at the order of events in Revelation, we can infer that the tribulation is before Christ’s coming.
I agree that the church comprises of the saints. However, there are professing Christians who won’t be saved, as Jesus indicated in the parable of the Tares and Wheat.
I saw a chart once that divided all the descriptions of the rapture and all the descriptions of Jesus return on two sides. the difference was striking especially to me who had always been taught that those two things go together. Like I said before, I still haven’t made my mind up about pre, mid, or post trib but when I started looking into pre trib I was surprised that they had more to their position that just the verse about “two men standing in a hill”. 😆
I think one of the strongest arguments for pre-trib is that we can calculate from revelation very exactly how long the tribulation will last. But the Bible says that the rapture will be unexpected, like a thief in the night. If we can figure out when the tribulation starts and recognize the signposts along the way, then we would be able to recognize when the rapture would be.
My question is, how do we know the verse about the church not being subject to Gods wrath is not just referring the wrath of hell?
“The Church” is made up of saints. When one believes in Jesus, they become a saint, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit until Jesus comes and we take possession of our inheritance. “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV
No, it doesn’t mention the church. It mentions the saints. Because not everyone in the church will be saved, unfortunately.
so I believe in pre trib for many reasons but as my dad pointed out to me a few years ago, if you are reading revelation, the church is not mentioned after chapter 3. so that kinda hints at the fact that the church will not be here when everything gets bad.
Satan will try to attack the church as Rev. 13:7 says, but Revelation 12:11 makes it clear that we, those who love and follow Jesus will be over-comers. “And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.”
Revelation 14:9-10 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Yeah, it will affect the whole world. Horrors will happen such as never before, but I think that the church will be protected. “Babylon,” which symbolizes the apostatized world, will be subject to the plagues. One of the major points of Revelation is to call people out of Babylon. Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues.”
The tribulation will be on THE WHOLE EARTH. There is no reference to MOST will undergo tribulation in the end. It says THE WHOLE WORLD. The only way I'd accept post is if the church was safe, but the Bible seems to make it crystal clear that no one will be safe
I believe that the church will be on earth during the tribulation but will be safe because they’ve trusted Jesus.
Just a little note, I agree with point 1.
2. I think that it’s not Satan’s wrath, but God releasing a good bit of His protection from the wicked. Also the plagues of the wrath of God that are mentioned in Revelation are poured out on the wicked.
I'll put all the positive side to why I believe in pretrib later... Gotta go for now
All of this makes me conclude that there is not a satisfying answer in post trib. The bible implys that a rapture is necessary, even if you don't find the passage used to say that there is a rapture convincing.
Another problem has to do with the imminent return of Christ. If, in a post trib position, the return of Christ is imminent, that turns the tribulation into something that is figurative and is going on now. But when we read Revelation and see the severity of all the judgment going on, that clearly doesn't parallel with what is going on now. Maybe in a small part of the world it seems to be, but as we've established, the tribulation affects everyone in earth.
So basically a problem is, the tribulation is for God to pour out his wrath on the earth. The church is specifically stated to be saved from the wrath of God, and therefore cannot be on the earth, because everyone on earth is subject to the judgment, because for anyone to be exempt from the judgment, they couldn't be on the earth.
And the purpose of the Tribulation is to judge the people in the earth. Rev 6:10, 11:10, 13:8, 12, 14; 14:6, 17:8. And also to prepare Israel, Ezek 36:18-32 Mal 4:5-6. Israel cannot be equated with the church.
This then causes a problem, because specific texts say that the church cannot be an object of his wrath, Rom 5:9, 1 Thess 5:9, 2 Thess 2:13, and Rev 3:10.
2. The tribulation is God's wrath... Siri may not know this, but the official posttribulation position states that the tribulation is Satan's wrath. Although read revelation and that's wrong. Revelation 6:16-17, 11:18, 16:19, 19:1-2. This makes clear that it is indeed the wrath of God.
First, let's establish a few things about the return of Christ in general, 1. The return of Christ is clearly imminent, I get this from several passages. Jesus said that he would come like a thief in the night... Thieves don't make appointments. The parables in Matthew 25 clearly illustrate the imminent return of christ. Matthew 24:42-44 talks about the thief...
First of all, I'm using scripture and common logic here to make the case against post trib, before I bring it back to my view.
Ok... I'm finally getting to what I was saying about the problems with posttribulationism
@Larissa, that sounds like a cool book! I should look it up as well.
Hi guys, I’m here too! Thanks for making this group. I’ve put my eschatology studies on the back burner for awhile but would like to start looking into it again. I have this book called “Revelation: Four Views” by Steve Gregg. He goes through the whole book of revelation verse by verse and explains how each hermeneutic approach interprets the verse. So I’d like to go through that and see what it opens up in my understanding.
I'll try to do that later today... We're leaving in a minute.
Could you though explain the issue you mentioned in Former SDA
I haven’t really studied the issue that much. This group will give me the right excuse to do so.
Ava
Saturday, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:10 AM
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Siri, do you have some verses that are evidence for your position?
if I recall correctly from previous conversations with Burger, she and I have the same beliefs on eschatology
Akamburger, are you post trib or pre trib. In other words, so you believe that Christians will be in the tribulation, or they will be raptured beforehand?
I am a premillennialist also. but I believe in a known rapture.
I'll explain later, when I have more time
I'm a dispensational premillenaillist. Or pre mil pre trib.
So what does everyone believe in here? As you all know, I’m premillennial without secret rapture.
Hi everyone... Just so you know John 1 has nothing to do with end times... I already have it current though